Why CHAdeMO Electric Car Charging Is on Death Row in Europe

By · August 14, 2013

One Nissan Leaf charging with Chademo

Nissan LEAF charging with Chademo

The news last week that the European Parliament wants to stop the installation of CHAdeMO Quick Charge stations by 2019 in Europe was a shock to many people. But it shouldn't be. The European Parliament is right to consider proposals to kill CHAdeMO, and whatever they decide, there's no doubt there are hard times ahead for the CHAdeMO standard in Europe.

Let's consider the facts. The best-selling electric car in France during the first half of the year was the Renault Zoe. It can't use CHAdeMO. The best-selling electric car in Germany during the first half of the year was the Smart Electric Drive. It can't use CHAdeMO either.

Looking at the whole of Europe, the two best-selling EVs last year were the Renault Twizy and Kangoo, and neither use CHAdeMO. What about Norway? Who cares about Norway? It's true that the Nissan LEAF, which relies on CHAdeMO chargers, was the best-selling EV in Norway last year, and Norway is geographically in Europe and is a member of European Economic Area. But Norway is not a member of the European Union, so it doesn't count here. Norwegians do not have a seat at this particular table.

Now, The Future

Before the end of this year, these new electric cars will be launched in Europe: Tesla Model S, Ford Focus Electric, Volkswagen E-Up! and the BMW i3. Not a single one works with CHAdeMO chargers. Only a minority of EVs work with CHAdeMO today, and that minority will only get smaller in the coming years. The only new model expected to use CHAdeMO will be a van, the Nissan E-NV200. The market rules, and this is not the vehicle that will turn the EV market around.

Some people say the CHAdeMO standard reflects a battle between the Japanese auto industry and the rest of the automotive world, but that's not true. Neither the Toyota RAV4 EV nor the Honda Fit EV work with CHAdeMO, and that leaves only two manufacturers to back the CHAdeMO standard: Nissan and Mitsubishi. The latter is not doing much to express its support. To anyone planing to install a charging station, it's risky to bet on a standard that gets so little backing from the broad automotive industry.

One Mitsubishi i charging with Chademo

Mitsubishi i charging with CHAdeMO

What about CHAdeMO's technology? Is it worth fighting for?

The plug is poorly designed since it doesn't allow slow charging. Cars use another plug for that. So the best thing about CHAdeMO is probably its proven safety record. This standard has several years of use behind it, and all the bugs were carefully ironed out before Japanese manufacturers started exporting it. The CHAdeMO plug is also unique in having a locking mechanism that prevents mishandling by drivers.

On the negative side, the CHAdeMO is quite bulky, and not very practical to use with that latch. The new competing SAE CCS combo plug, or the Tesla connector, are both sleeker, lighter and faster to use. They also allow higher currents. CHAdeMO was originally designed for 100-kW service, but delivers 50-kW at stations. European CCS plug is designed to handle up to 170-kW, and delivers 50-kW today but should be quickly upgraded to 85 to 90-kW, while the Tesla plug puts out 120-kW.

The backers of the CCS connector claim that it's safer than CHAdeMO—although nobody has user data to prove this. CCS is backed by all American and German car manufacturers. So if you're a gambler, the safe bet is CCS.

Here's the bigger point: the world needs to get used to the idea that, with EVs, the automobile made a bold step into the ever-changing world of consumer electronics. Vinyl records are gone. VHS tapes are finito. Does anyone remember when computers had serial and parallel ports? Nobody should expect an EV plug in use today to be here forever. By 2019, the CHAdeMO plug will have had 10 years of existence. It would be lucky to last that long.

Comments

· · 4 years ago

You give a long list of cars that do not support CHAdeMO but (apart from Tesla) they do not support fast charging at all.

Another way to put it is that close to 100% of all fast charging capable cars currently sold in Europe support CHAdeMO.

· · 4 years ago

Let's be honest here . . . this *is* battle between US and German auto companies and Japanese auto companies. (Yes, Toyota and Honda do not make CHAdeMO vehicles but they are CHAdeMO members.) The US & German auto companies don't want the Japanese companies to have a big head start.

Even if we assume that sleazy reason, it is probably best to just move to SAE-CCS in the USA and Europe and then be done with the stupid pointless battle. It will be much easier to get Nissan to adopt SAE-CCS than to get GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW, Audi, BMW, and Benz to all switch adopt CHAdeMO. It is that simple . . . let the standard with more backers win.

CHAdeMO can stay the standard in Japan because the vast majority of CHAdeMO chargers are in Japan.

· · 4 years ago

Why can't we all just have the EU's Type 2 plug? it's smaller then a J1772 connector, it has 7 prongs that allow 3 phase, two voltages of single phase A/C charging and DC charging all with a single plug! it makes the J1772 plug look crude and basic and all of the options for DC fast charging look silly.

· · 4 years ago

@EvDriver I believe the SAE-CCS plug is the Type 2 plug.

· · 4 years ago

Why cant we just have adapters to hook between the systems. TESLA sells/provides a J1772 adapter. Reason for a CHAdeMO to Type 2 and vice versa adapter? Along insterstates and hig traffic areas I see this as an issue. Along other roads/installations near business' the J1772 will be just fine, a little bump on the juice is all most of us need anyways.

· · 4 years ago

"Before the end of this year, these new electric cars will be launched in Europe: Tesla Model S, Ford Focus Electric, Volkswagen E-Up! and the BMW i3. Not a single one works with CHAdeMO chargers."

And, except for the Tesla, not a single one works with *any* fast charger. Hatchet job journalism...ahh...it's what's for breakfast....

· · 4 years ago

Looks as though the Europeans only want one plug. Fair enough. So will J1772 Opel Amperas be able to use a Mennekes plug through an adapter? Or will future Opels also migrate to the Mennekes?.

Before they went with that SAE thing with the Spark EV, GM's plans using only the J1772 seemed to make sense worldwide. I would hope they would minimize the number of plugs out there, since while Europe is strictly 220Y/380 50 Hz, the plugs used for each individual country is a real mess.

Lets hope they do somewhat better with EV's.

· · 4 years ago

@sTv0 - Not sure where the hatchet is. It seems clear that Laurent's main point is correct--that the percentage of electric cars using CHAdeMO in Europe will decline, based on the new models entering the market. Also, that hardware changes over time in a quick-moving technology. It's starting to look like Nissan/CHAdeMO versus everybody else. I don't agree with SAE's reasoning behind its standard (even though the CHAdeMO plug is damn clunky). But the facts tell the story: Europe is going away from CHAdeMO. And there really are no standards for DC Quick Charging, just a collection of protocols.

· · 4 years ago

> sTv0
Both the BMW i3 and the VW E-Up! are CCS compliant for fast DC charging.

> Bill Howland
You can already buy in Germany a cord to plug an Ampera on a Type 2 station.

Type 2 for AC/DC charging up to 43 kW, and CCS for more, Europe will get it!

· · 4 years ago

what does Model S have to do with the Chademo vs Combo plug debate?

· · 4 years ago

Wow, is Europe also getting rid of all gasoline stations (or diesel, depending on which fuel is more prevalent in Europe today)?

Say what you will about having 2 standards (I too think it's completely unnecessary), but this article is probably the best example of cherry-picked data used to support a case that I have ever seen. All the author did was to pick some countries that had a particular best seller EV that did not support CHAdeMO, and used that as his examples. Since the vehicles mentioned don't support DC FC at all, I'm left wondering why the author wasn't arguing for NO DC FC stations in those countries, since apparently it's an all or nothing proposition.

Yes, vinyl records and parallel ports are gone. But they didn't disappear before a replacement that had a competitive advantage came along and made it obsolete. In my opinion, the author did not make the case for the combo plug having a competitive advantage over CHAdeMO. He did make some points, but not very strong ones. A single plug for fast charging and slow charging? Who cares? If a particular charging station has fast charging capability, I'll grab the plug that supports fast charging. If my car doesn't have fast charging capability, I'll grab the slow plug. Hard to use with the latch? Seriously? And of course the speculation about how much power will be delivered by the CCS plug and how much cars that support it will be able to actually use. Sorry, it's a weak case if anything.

I don't have a problem if there is a strong advantage to one plug over another (even if that advantage turns out to be market acceptance). But to suggest that it be killed now (before there are even any combo plug vehicles out there!) without even waiting to see what the market accepts in the coming years is completely foolish.

· · 4 years ago

Somehow I think we'd all survive if medium speed (3.3 kw) charging was attached to a j1772, and high speed (100 kw) charging was attached optionally to a Chademo.

Most people world wide would be perfectly satisfied with just the j1772, and for those who want more, there's Chademo. I'm not so big that I can't admit Nissan's system (j1772 base, and both jacks for top of the line vehicles) wouldn't become a nice defacto worldwide standard. People who don't need or want to pay for high speed charging don't have to. Those who do want to pay for the expansive jack and charging facilities can. And everything works everywhere. Europeans allow 1phase 16 amp draw, and Chademo will work with single or polyphase rectifiers.

But supposedly this is not to be , and we'll have two standards. Fine with me.

· · 4 years ago

Laurent, sérieusement, faut arrêter de fumer la moquette.
(Laurent, whatever you're smoking, please stop)

Are you just trolling to see how many answers you get here? Or have positions on the stock market you hope to move in the right direction?
That article got to be one of the most uninformed on PIC for quite some time, a collection of misleading statements to downright falsehoods.

First and foremost, Europe, which initially did spec CCS only, just recently approved CHAdeMO. Don't take my word for it, please just read the official text.
Page 45, http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fNONS...

Norway matters, because 3% of cars sold there this year were EVs, six times more than any other European country. 80% were Leafs, btw.
Worldwide, the majority of EVs sold actually have a CHAdeMO port. Only France lags big time actually (maybe that's your issue?)

FYI, current vehicles with CHAdeMO also include the Peugeot iOn, Citroën C-zero, Honda Fit (just not in all markets yet), Zero motorcycles, and BD Otomotive's vans/commercial EVs.
The upcoming ones you can add the Mitsubishi Outlander, Kia Soul and Infinity LE, and hopefully Tesla S with adapter.
Btw, I wouldn't call the RAV4 EV Japanese; its drivetrain is from Tesla. Toyota is a CHAdeMO board member though, so guess which quick-charging standard it will pick if it ever becomes serious about EVs...

There are more car manufacturers behind CHAdeMO than behind CCS. Yes, all it takes to verify is to just count.
Laurent, tu peux compter? http://www.chademo.com/wp/members/
BTW, you might spot some European and American companies there, too.

Next, complaining about Mitsubishi's level of support for CHAdeMO. Let's compare with the CCS backers, shall we? They have no car, no charger, nada. So far nothing but hot air.
Mitsubishi didn't just make cars, it installed more quick-chargers than all the other car-makers except Nissan and Tesla.

Max DC power output: CHAdeMO 100kW, CCS 90kW.
Those limits are imposed by the size and location of the contacts; marketing vs physics, guess which one wins?

Safety: CHAdeMO is proven, boasts a spotless record. The standard mandates and guarantees galvanic isolation at all times, redundant fault detection and interlocks, etc; as an electrical engineer, CHAdeMO looks to me like a well though-out, very safe, conservative design.
CCS comes as an afterthought slapped over J1772 or Mennekes, skips many of CHAdeMO's safety measures, relies on PLC designed for consumer electronics, not automotive use; it was rushed and is nowhere near as polished -- as, again, the European parliament just recently officially recognized, calling it "not ready" (link above).

True, by 2019 there very well may be a more powerful "level-4" DC quick-charging proposal, and it will be different than anything we see today.
For now though, to all manufacturers except Tesla, CHAdeMO isn't just the best option available, it's the only option available. It's here to stay.

· · 4 years ago

I had this conversation with an Aerovironment engineer a while back and he said they weren't concerned since they could build the 480V 3 phase chargers with both connectors. Anyone know if that's true?

· · 4 years ago

I hope we get rid of Chademo.

- The only advantage it has is that it's the incumbent technology. Fortunately, we've only produced a relatively tiny number of EVs so far, so now is the time to change. Besides, if we were all supporters of incumbent technologies, we would all be driving gas powered cars or maybe riding horses.

- Most of the currently installed chargers are installed in poor locations. The only place with a sizable sensible deployment is in Washington and Oregon. In the rest of the country they are installed at Whole Foods Co-ops, ten miles from where people live. In other words, we'll be losing very little even if all these stations were shut down (although hopefully they are converted).

- Biggest pro-SAE point: Everybody agrees that the SAE plug is preferable from a usability and aesthetics standpoint. When I show non-EV owners a Chademo plug, they are surprised (not in a good way) how big it is. It looks like something that you would expect to find in a factory. First impressions are important in this stage of EV adoption and Chademo gives a very bad first impression.

- It's too hard to spell and all the CAPS and lowercase really wreak havoc with auto-correct on my iPad. :)

· · 4 years ago

One other thing. A DC charge port should not be optional on any plugin car, it should be required. Imagine how much more demand there would be for fast charging stations if every Leaf and Volt on the road today could be fast charged, instead of just a few. It costs very little extra to add and would speed the construction of infrastructure and acceptance of EVs.

· · 4 years ago

Pretty vacuous piece. Cars that don't have DCFC shouldn't even be mentioned - it's just as true to say that they don't support CCS as that they don't support CHAdeMO.

As to a sentence like "The backers of the CCS connector claim that it's safer than CHAdeMO—although nobody has user data to prove this." -- why would anyone with journalistic pretensions even write that? Against such empty bleating, what really speaks for itself is CHAdeMO's well-established track record of safely and reliably doing something that could easily be hazardous if done badly.

Given all that blatant nonsense, I see no reason to credit any of this with further analysis; I'm satisfied with the observations made previously. For those interested in a far more interesting discussion, go back to the original article on the EU "screw CHAdeMO" proposal and follow the comments there:

http://www.plugincars.com/european-parliament-mulling-legislation-would-...

· · 4 years ago

@PaulScott

Is possible to make new DC Quick Chargers with multiple styles of connectors. However, much more expensive to upgrade existing deployments.

Connectors are only part of the compatibility issue. The more complex interoperability is differences in signaling and charging protocols. (It's like mixing digital and analog communications) Here is an ABB DC Charger that has both CHAdeMO and (EU) Combo connectors: http://www.abb.us/product/seitp332/93d1501f3933a723c1257b0f003a20d1.aspx

The issue is more a regional political standards fight: JSA in Japan, IEC-ISO in EU, and SAE in US. Automotive OEMs, energy providers & local governments all have picked options without looking forward 5-10 years when the number of PEVs grows from few 100 thousand to millions.

It's like early days of railroads where every region had different gauge of track. The longer we delay the more expensive it will be to standardize.

· · 4 years ago

With EU's Type 2 Standard, it is becoming common to find 22 kW and 43 kW charging infrastructure. For example, the E.U. version of Smart TwoFour Electric Drive (ED) has 22 kW charger option. U.S. edition of Smart ED only has 3.3 kW. Renault's Zoé comes with 43 kW charging capability. Likewise the Japanese edition of Honda Fit EV has 50 kW CHAdeMO vs, U.S. edition having just 6.6 kW.

It's like EU and Japan driving ahead at 100 kph (60 mph) but U.S. EV drivers limited to 15 kph (10 mph). If there's a U.S. charging war … Tesla in the lead as will claim coverage to over 80% of U.S. with 120-200 kW charging in 2014 (98%+ in 2015). http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Disappointing is U.S.'s EV Project, with ECOtality (Blink) only deploying only ~85 of 300 DC Quick Chargers. EV Project had Dec 31 deployment goal, but work recently received a stop work order from the Dept. Of Energy.

@EvDriver Agree, EU's Mennekes Type 2 connector is default equipment on EU version of Tesla Model S. Believe the Type 2 connector will also be use for SupperCharging at 120-200 kW/h. Demo of EU SuperChargers should confirm this in next 1-2 months as first EU SuperChargers go live in Norway.

@Spec The SAE-Combo DC plug is U.S. specific (mashed with J1772 connector) The E.U. version of Combo is mashed with a Type 2 connector (will require different plug on vehicle). The US-Combo is being SAE certified; the EU-Combo is IEC-ISO certified as 62196-3: http://www.vattenfall.com/en/standardisation-of-fast-charging-equipment-...

There will be more than 100,000 PEVs with CHAdeMO on roads before 2014, so will be hard to see major changes without an upgrade path, or kit offered. For EV drivers the concern is less about the shape of connector and more about the expierence of charging. Will they be able to plug in at known working stations? Will they be able to get juice flowing without jumping through payment and authorization hoops?

The charging experience should be no more complex than putting air in a tire.

· · 4 years ago

Wow - Heavy. Look at the SAE plug without blinking for 60 seconds. You cant do it. It will make you fall in love with Chademo. Actually no, the Tesla plug is the only final solution.

· · 4 years ago

@Mr.O
"Europe, which initially did spec CCS only, just recently approved CHAdeMO"
Actually that link is exactly what this article is talking about. Yes, there previously was a European commission that left CHAdeMO out of their charging infrastructure recommendations (bad, but not a real law), but this time this is actually a law proposed that will kill CHAdeMO off by 2019 (even though it also approves a transition period at the same time).

"Norway matters"
Actually it doesn't matter in this decision, because Norway is not part of the EU, so the market share there is irrelevant. This law only effects EU countries.

"There are more car manufacturers behind CHAdeMO than behind CCS"
That's a long list, but the actual automakers for CHAdeMO on that list are 8 (4 founders): Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru (Fuji Heavy), Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, PSA
CCS has 8 automakers as founders: Audi / Porsche / Volkswagen, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, General Motors.
The entire ACEA also explicitly supports CCS, which adds 7 more (not including trucks): Fiat, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover, PSA, Renault, Toyota, Volvo.
http://electricdrive.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/id/32209

"Max DC power output: CHAdeMO 100kW, CCS 90kW."

Actually the currently physical CHAdeMO connectors actually only support 62.5kW (500V*125A) because even their "next gen" connectors are current limited. On paper it supports up to 200A, but this was never implemented.
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_neo.html

BMW/GM are already testing 90kW (450V*200A) SAE DC charging.
http://insideevs.com/gm-and-bmw-join-forces-to-complete-testing-on-dc-co...

The European version can support 70kW (500V*140A) with no extra DC pins (no combo) and 100kW (500V*200A) with them. On paper, the EU version actually supports 250A in mode 3 and 400A in mode 4 (probably not this connector).
http://www.mennekes.de/nl/latest0.html?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=851&cHash=...

· · 4 years ago

Seriously,

What a pointless discussion. CHAdeMO or CCS or Type 2... There are several manufacturers out there that support and manufacture chargers with both CHAdeMO and CCS and Type 2. There is no need to kill any of the standards or discuss which is better, or has more support than others.

Just as you’ll come to the gas station today and choose between petrol, diesel, biogas or ethanol, your future electric driver will choose between CHAdeMO, CCS or Type 2.
It really isn’t more difficult than that.

· · 4 years ago

I bet that next Spring in Germany (Europe's largest country), there will be more cars with a CCS plug than cars with a Chademo plug. Not in ten years, next Spring.

· · 4 years ago

Andy, agreed, and that's exactly what VW, Nissan and probably others were suggesting: in doubt, install multi-standard QCs.

Replies to previous comments (can't help it):

@John:
1) There may be "only" ~100k CHAdeMO EVs on the roads, but that's a lot compared to exactly zero CCS so far. Assuming existing vehicles would cost only 1000 euros to retrofit (if that's even possible), we're looking at 100 millions... do you want to contribute?
2) Chargers locations have nothing to do with what protocol they use
3) The CCS connector is actually much taller than CHAdeMO's. Whether it looks nicer is, er, debatable at best (some name it Frankenplug for a reason), and not exactly important anyway.

@vike1108: fully agreed. Nicely worded btw.

@Brian: you seem to be ignoring two important details re the US market:
- The Leaf is the best-selling EV there too, followed by the Model S, so it's not like Americans have no quick-charge-capable EVs
- Blink L3/DCQCs only represent about 1/4 of the installed quick-chargers; there are over 300 total now. Plus over a dozen Tesla locations too.
http://www.plugshare.com/

Regarding Tesla in Europe: even with some creative, non-standard reassignment of the Mennekes connector contacts, 140A DC is the absolute max it will sustain (see Jake's link). With the Model S battery voltage, this translates to at most 60kW.
Even with the original (US-style) Tesla S connector, 200kW is completely unrealistic.

@Jake: regarding this European directive proposal amendment (which explicitly adds CHAdeMO as acceptable quick-charging option, as CCS is not ready), please explain how this somehow makes it more "law" than the previous, non-amended text. I see no reason why; it remains non-binding.

Even if it somehow only authorized new CHAdeMO installs until 2019,
1) that's a heck of a long time for a de-facto standard to get deeply established, and
2) while the commission notes that its goal is to eventually choose one standard, it does NOT specify which one yet -- only that both CHAdeMO and CCS are equally acceptable for the time being.

Regarding Norway: it's a key market for EVs in Europe, so manufacturers are unlikely to ignore it regardless of political considerations. Tesla and Nissan certainly don't. If EU directives don't apply, only market forces will drive adoption -- and, well, pretty much have already!

Next, the fact that more car manufacturers back CHAdeMO over CCS also remains:
From the CHAdeMO camp, you left out a bunch of companies maybe not too relevant to the European market (Isuzu, Kawasaki, Tata, BYD...), fair enough, but also Volvo and Suzuki.
On the CCS side, first you count the VW group 3 times, yet you considered Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity and Peugeot Citroën one each?
Then you want to add Fiat (you already counted its subsidiary Chrysler), Hyundai (actually a CHAdeMO member), Jaguar/Land Rover (subsidiary of Tata, CHAdeMO member), PSA, Toyota and Volvo (all 3 also CHAdeMO).
The document you link to considers that vehicles with an AC-only inlet comply; by that definition, any plug-ins with J1772 or Mennekes is already "CCS". No wonder car-makers have no problem supporting that; even Nissan does.

Re maximum power, let's not mix up reality and theory, and only compare apples to apples: connectors already deployed and in use, what the specification would safely allow with the current connector design, OR what the protocol could handle with an arbitrary large, incompatible connector.
Existing/deployed CHAdeMO: 62kW. Existing/deployed CCS: none.
Possible CHAdeMO: 100kW. Possible CCS: 90kW as SAE spec says 450V; 100kW if we assume 500V.
"On paper" arbitrary connector: both could probably go to 1MW+, it's completely irrelevant. 550A, 250kW CHAdeMO-protocol chargers are commercially available today... so?
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/AV_EV250-PS_061110.pdf
My point (which remains) was that Laurent's numbers were incorrect, and that the difference between the two connectors is actually not significant, or certainly not in favor of CCS. Which, again, isn't surprising: contacts are about the same.

@Laurent: LOL! I certainly don't think it will happen, but in a sense I hope so: it'd mean that VW is dead serious about EVs, and BMW wildly successful. Yippee!
Now, even cars with CCS don't somehow make CHAdeMO ones disappear, so what do you suggest be done with those? :-)

· · 4 years ago

@Paul Scott

Since you're part of a Nissan Dealership, I believe the Chademo chargers you guys are installing will handle anything from 200 - 480 volts, and Canadian versions will additionally handle 347Y/600 as is common in Canadian Malls.

The 200 volt flexibility will be handy if Nissan ever decides to install a level 3 charger here and there at their dealerships, since most Nissan franchises in Western NY are smaller and therefore the vast majority don't have 480, although they might have enough spare capacity for a 50 kw fast charger running on the standard 208 system.

The Chademo system does seem conservatively designed. Any double button pushing customers will get used to so its not a big deal.

Paul, I think Nissan has the perfect solution connector wise ( j1772 on the stripped models, and chademo for the top of the line vehicles in addition to the j1772).

Apparently we're in the minority here. However, you sell lots of EV's.. What are your customers saying because I don't even own a Nissan but I think they've got the best idea.

· · 4 years ago

Can we at least agree that we want the freaking gov't out of the EV business? Why can't the market decide which plug(s) should be available? Are the customers imbeciles? Are the manufacturers?

I hereby promote the most universal standard of them all, stripped wires and wire nuts. Oh wait, wire nuts are also illegal in Europe. Frack! ;)

· · 4 years ago

@Mr.O wrote:>>>>>> while the commission notes that its goal is to eventually choose one standard, it does NOT specify which one yet -- only that both CHAdeMO and CCS are equally acceptable for the time being.<<<<<<<<

Wow - I guess that's a possible reading, and an intriguing one. Intentional or not, might the EP have backed into letting the market decide? :-)

@Laurent wrote:>>>>>I bet that next Spring in Germany (Europe's largest country), there will be more cars with a CCS plug than cars with a Chademo plug. Not in ten years, next Spring.<<<<<<

Really? What form would this bet take? (this isn't a gambling site, so you'll need to come up with some ritual humiliation to present to your audience for being wrong - any ideas? For the flip side, think of something amusing but low-value for counterparties to send you.) Unless the German automakers intend to make CCS standard on their EVs, I'll be very surprised if you don't wind up, e.g., shaving your head (though some like Mr.O might be glad to send you a tchotchke in celebration, since it would mean hefty EV sales by German players).

· · 4 years ago

Bill Howland asked, "However, you sell lots of EV's.. What are your customers saying because I don't even own a Nissan but I think they've got the best idea."

Most of my customers opt for the DC/QC these days since we have the chargers in the ground. Last year, we had a total of one in all of LA, today, there are at least 18, and we'll have some 35-40 by the end of the year. This has changed everything. I have a customer who leased his LEAF two months ago and after the first month, he called to say he'd driven 3,900 miles and had not charged at home once, and he hasn't paid for any charging, all free.He's getting a huge benefit because of the abundant DC/QC in the LA region.

· · 4 years ago

"Just as you’ll come to the gas station today and choose between petrol, diesel, biogas or ethanol, your future electric driver will choose between CHAdeMO, CCS or Type 2. It really isn’t more difficult than that."

Precisely, Andy. That's an observation I've advanced here many times. While it's silly that so much effort is being expended to kill off CHAdeMO in favor of SAE-CCS (which isn't really even here yet,) it's actually easier to have an L-3 EVSE with a couple different format plugs than a liquid fuel pump with multiple massive underground tanks holding different fuels.

· · 4 years ago

"Regarding Tesla in Europe: even with some creative, non-standard reassignment of the Mennekes connector contacts, 140A DC is the absolute max it will sustain (see Jake's link)"
Incorrect, Tesla will use deeper pins than the standard Mennekes to support 120kW. There's a thread on Tesla Motors Club that discusses this (with pictures). They did similar with their US spec connector to get 120kW through two relatively small diameter pins.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8173-Europe-Future-Charging-for-Model-S-1-phase-or-3-phase-(Part-2)

"please explain how this somehow makes it more "law" than the previous, non-amended text"
I'm talking about this decision, which CHAdeMO made a big deal about:
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/28/chademo-disappointed-european-commi...
The "non-amended" draft was never reported by the media (nor did CHAdeMO protest it) so I'm not talking about that.

"Regarding Norway: it's a key market for EVs in Europe, so manufacturers are unlikely to ignore it regardless of political considerations. Tesla and Nissan certainly don't."
Yet, Tesla is choosing a modified version of Mennekes Type 2 and an adapter for CHAdeMO with no native port. Norway is an important market at this point for EVs, but the whole EU is a much larger auto market than Norway. EVs can not succeed without opening up the broader EU market and the companies doing that (Renault and I suspect BMW soon) do not support CHAdeMO.

"On the CCS side, first you count the VW group 3 times"
I put "8 automakers" because that's what the PR says. If you count groups, they are tied (but it's pretty clear CCS still has more major auto groups esp. since all of the ones listed exist in the EU/US which is not true for CHAdeMO).

CHAdeMO 12 (4 more added, excluding Isuzu which only has a commercial truck division in Europe, Kawasaki motorcycles): Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru (Fuji Heavy), Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, PSA, Tata, BYD, Volvo, Suzuki
CCS 12: Audi / Porsche / Volkswagen, BMW, Chrysler/Fiat, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover/Tata, PSA, Renault, Toyota, Volvo.

"The document you link to considers that vehicles with an AC-only inlet comply"
Nope, ACEA is supporting Combo 2 explicitly (not just type 2 and definitely J1772 doesn't qualify):
"ACEA, the European association of vehicle manufacturers, selected the Combined Charging System by using Type 2 and Combo 2 based AC/DC charging interface for all new vehicles types beginning in 2017 for Europe."

"Existing/deployed CCS: none."
There are 4 50kW units in operation by automakers since March and 7 charger manufacturers getting UL listing which should be done by late this year. There's also a GOE3 50kW dual SAE DC/CHAdeMO unit in Arizona. I have given that link from June in my previous post about testing 90kW SAE DC units.
http://www.evcollaborative.org/sites/all/themes/pev/files/PEV%20Collabor...
http://www.teslamotors.com/de_AT/forum/forums/tesla-and-chademo?page=2

""On paper" arbitrary connector: both could probably go to 1MW+,"
I'm clearly talking about on paper, same connector. CHAdeMO claims 100kW (500V*200A), CCS claims the same (90kW SAE, 100kW Mennekes, both 200A).
http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/optimal/

"550A, 250kW CHAdeMO-protocol chargers are commercially available today"
That's not a 250kW CHAdeMO connector charger. It may be able to use the same protocol (as an option, unclear if it supports the same current with that option) but if the connector is different it's irrelevant (connector being the big issue here in this article).

And there's something a lot of people left out, which is 43kW 3-phase AC charging (which is what Renault is pushing instead of CHAdeMO). That's what Europe is focusing on next and has the most market share in the EU. That's why they can afford to put DC charging on the back burner for now. This issue is more pressing in the US and there has to be a quick move to get SAE DC chargers UL listed before the end of the year.

@vike1108
"I bet that next Spring in Germany (Europe's largest country), there will be more cars with a CCS plug than cars with a Chademo plug. Not in ten years, next Spring.

Really? What form would this bet take?"
Not that hard for Laurent to win. The major German EV, the i3 has the CCS socket. The VW e-Golf and e-UP! also have it. The combined sales of the Leaf/iMIEV in Germany has been dismal (less than 1000 per year combined), so it won't be hard for the i3 to overtake it.

· · 4 years ago

"he hasn't paid for any charging, all free"

Exactly. That won't last long either, will it?

· · 4 years ago

"he hasn't paid for any charging, all free"

Exactly. That won't last long either, will it?

· · 4 years ago

I'm not sure this piece does a service to promoting the proposed DC charging standard; it's that bad.

Some facts are real, real simple. Eight German and USA manufacturers have proposed a new DC charging standard for their electric cars. FACT.

Every other vehicle manufacturer in the entire world does has not adopted this standard. FACT.

CHAdeMO is the only DC charging standard the same throughout the world. FACT.

The EU has not "outlawed" CHAdeMO, either today, or in the future. FACT.

Opinion: Clearly it's dumb to have even more standards, but obviously the USA and German auto makers will continue to promote their new proposal. As much as I would prefer a single standard, the reality is that the groundwork is already being laid for future battles over inductive (wireless) and higher powered DC conductive charging. The war has only just begun.

Opinion: Flamboyant articles like this don't help promote the "Frankenplug".

Guess: There will be more CHAdeMO cars and chargers around the world the any of the competitors for 5 - 10 years, when a wholly new standard will hopefully emerge.

· · 4 years ago

@Vike

"Unless the German automakers intend to make CCS standard on their EVs"

Uh . . . that is exactly what already happened. Try to keep up.

· · 4 years ago

This info was interesting:

CHAdeMO 12 (4 more added, excluding Isuzu which only has a commercial truck division in Europe, Kawasaki motorcycles): Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru (Fuji Heavy), Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, PSA, Tata, BYD, Volvo, Suzuki
CCS 12: Audi / Porsche / Volkswagen, BMW, Chrysler/Fiat, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover/Tata, PSA, Renault, Toyota, Volvo.

It is pretty clear it is largely an East v. West thing. But hasn't China gone with SAE-CCS? So that kinda tilts it towards SAE-CCS

· · 4 years ago

@Spec: When I say "Unless the German automakers intend to make CCS STANDARD on their EVs" I don't mean as opposed to a DIFFERENT standard (e.g. CHAdeMO), I mean as opposed to OPTIONAL, which CCS so far appears to be on every vehicle slated to offer it in the U.S.

So are you saying that "exactly what already happened" is that BMW and VW have announced they are not just going to OFFER CCS, but will actually put CCS on every single EV they sell in Germany as STANDARD EQUIPMENT? Because if so, I missed that and thanks for letting us in on it (link to the story please?).

Otherwise, uh, try to keep up yourself.

· · 4 years ago

@Spec
"But hasn't China gone with SAE-CCS"
China seems to be going with a "hybrid" version that will be incompatible with either. It uses a connector that looks like a Mennekes AC connector except with bigger power pins (to support DC without the two extra pins in Combo), but uses a CAN bus for the communication like CHAdeMO does.

See Page 28 here:
http://www.iea.org/media/workshops/2013/egrdmobility/Marlay_Electric_Veh...
Here's BYD's presentation to SAE.
http://www.sae.org/events/gim/presentations/2011/BYD.pdf

That's why BYD is involved in both and taking ideas from both.

"I mean as opposed to OPTIONAL, which CCS so far appears to be on every vehicle slated to offer it in the U.S."
CHAdeMO is optional on every vehicle in the US also ($1300, $1630 option on Leaf S and Leaf SV, $700 for the iMIEV), so that's not a fair standard. There's no vehicle out there that has QC standard on the base model (not even the Model S). Yes, there are higher trim levels that have it standard, but the price is already including in the premium you paid.

It seems lots of people assume the CHAdeMO port is standard equipment (this is not the first time I've seen this claimed) but it's not true.

· · 4 years ago

@vike1108
Side point: that's also why you can't simply use Leaf/iMIEV sales as an estimate of CHAdeMO market share. It makes figuring out the various market shares that much more difficult.

But at this point, it's pretty safe to say if cars that offer CCS as an option can overtake ones that offer CHAdeMO (or the opposite) there's a good chance the DC share is similar.

· · 4 years ago

@JakeY wrote:>>>>>>>>>Not that hard for Laurent to win. The major German EV, the i3 has the CCS socket. The VW e-Golf and e-UP! also have it. The combined sales of the Leaf/iMIEV in Germany has been dismal (less than 1000 per year combined), so it won't be hard for the i3 to overtake it.<<<<<<<<<<<<

To repeat the question above, are you saying that BMW and VW intend to provide the CCS socket as STANDARD EQUIPMENT? And if they are, then let's please get that communicated more clearly (or just bring my attention to what I overlooked, that's fine too).

But again, if not, then please understand the difference between "the i3 HAS the CCS socket" and "the i3 OFFERS the CCS socket". Laurent's bet, specifically, was:

>>>>>>I bet that next Spring in Germany (Europe's largest country), there will be more cars with a CCS plug than cars with a Chademo plug. <<<<<<

That's WITH a CCS socket, not WITH THE OPTION of a CCS socket. The car doesn't count if it doesn't have the socket, no matter if other cars of the same model do.

btw, who on earth said that CHAdeMO was standard equipment? I know I never did, so don't run that nonsense next to any quote from me. But while it's optional, it's a pretty popular option. Many (most?) LEAFs sold in the U.S. are bought with CHAdeMO, including all SLs; as of 2013, it's a pretty popular option on the new S and the SV (which didn't have the option before) as well. And that's for good reason - so far, the only Level 3 charging currently deployed for public use in the U.S. is CHAdeMO.

My real point is that just because a manufacturer offers CCS, that tells us nothing about CCS sales until customers order the option. Then we'll know; until then, we won't. And reading through this thread, I have to wonder, if the CCS socket is optional, will BMW & VW also be supporting high power AC charging through the Mennekes socket? I suppose not, but if they did, I imagine that would make a CCS option that much less attractive.

Finally, to this:

@JakeY wrote:>>>>>>>>>...at this point, it's pretty safe to say if cars that offer CCS as an option can overtake ones that offer CHAdeMO (or the opposite) there's a good chance the DC share is similar.<<<<<<<<

I don't think that's safe to say at all. Uptake of CCS by vehicle purchasers will be very much dependent on uptake of CCS by charging providers. A big problem for CCS in the U.S. is going to be that the biggest EV market, California, is going to have a good number of CHAdeMO chargers on the ground before the first CCS cars are on offer. Unless GM could succeed in umm, "convincing" (ahem) politicians to coerce charging providers to favor CCS, the "standard" could be stuck in a "without chargers, people don't buy the sockets & without compatible cars, charging providers won't supply the plugs" vicious circle -- and GM appears to have failed spectacularly in their anti-CHAdeMO efforts.

I don't spend any time in Germany, so I don't know what the Level 3 charging landscape looks like there. But if BMW & VW offer EVs without CCS at a lower price and the EP doesn't mandate support/buildout of CCS charging infrastructure (which is what this whole discussion is about, after all), it's not at all clear to me that those EV buyers will pony up for CCS in the same numbers as LEAF buyers opt for CHAdeMO. If the reason for government support of CCS is "otherwise, CHAdeMO will win," somebody's going to have to explain to me what's so bad about CHAdeMO winning. Some have tried, but no winners so far.

· · 4 years ago

Okay, putting the whole "east vs. west" thing aside, does it strike anyone as funny that the Renault-Nissan alliance is both promoting AND opposing CHAdeMO?

Can anyone get a comment from Ghosn about this?
Or would that represent a Carlos Danger?

[I am so, so sorry . . . .]

· · 4 years ago

@vike1108
"That's WITH a CCS socket, not WITH THE OPTION of a CCS socket. The car doesn't count if it doesn't have the socket, no matter if other cars of the same model do.

btw, who on earth said that CHAdeMO was standard equipment? I know I never did, so don't run that nonsense next to any quote from me."
The implication I got is you think CHAdeMO is standard equipment since you say CCS must be standard equipment for Laurent to win: "Unless the German automakers intend to make CCS standard on their EVs, I'll be very surprised if you don't wind up, e.g., shaving your head"
I apologize if that's not what you are implying, but it's still not fair to say CCS must be standard equipment for it to win if CHAdeMO is not standard equipment in the first place.

"But while it's optional, it's a pretty popular option"
Can you say how many opt for it (as a percentage or a hard number, not just "pretty popular")? It's pointless to bring it up unless there's a way to figure out the numbers. All we'll end up comparing in such a bet is what I'm saying: cars that offer either as an option, not the actual numbers for cars equipped with the option, simply because we won't be able to get the numbers for the latter.

"A big problem for CCS in the U.S. is going to be that the biggest EV market, California, is going to have a good number of CHAdeMO chargers on the ground before the first CCS cars are on offer. Unless GM could succeed in umm, "convincing" (ahem) politicians to coerce charging providers to favor CCS"
They don't need to do that, there are 200 CCS chargers (which AFAIK will be dual connector units that also support CHAdeMO) guaranteed to be installed in California as part of the NRG settlement. All that has to happen is 2 CCS charger manufacturers being UL listed (which is being worked on and should happen by the end of this year). See the pdf I linked previously:
http://www.evcollaborative.org/sites/all/themes/pev/files/PEV%20Collabor...

In Germany, the government plan is a big push for DC charging in 2017 (44kW AC stations in the 2014-2017 time frame). However, both VW and BMW already built the first two public CCS stations in Germany just in the past two months. So it's not true even in Germany that there's no CCS stations in existence (an oft repeated statement by the CHAdeMO camp).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#Combined_Charging_System

"does it strike anyone as funny that the Renault-Nissan alliance is both promoting AND opposing CHAdeMO?"
That's one of the biggest thing that tells me CHAdeMO is not all it's hyped up to be. If even Renault decides not to go with CHAdeMO, there must be a good reason for it. If Renault backed CHAdeMO then there's only a slim chance Laurent will win (since the Zoe is the best selling EV in Europe this year), but that's not the case. If I recall correctly, Renault used to be a CHAdeMO member but left recently after they decided not to use it.

· · 4 years ago

@Kcarmichael

Sorry it looks like all of us missed your reasonable question.

The non-standard model S connector, along with large single phase in-car chargers are, shall we say, difficult if not impossible to use in Europe due to their Single Phase current limitation of 16 amps (or 32 in the UK).

Since Mennekes ( a 3 phase 'j1772' like connector ) is standard in Europe Tesla Could have provided a 3 phase to single phase brick to be used with their existin connector, or else go the NISSAN route with an addtional CHademo DC connector. As mentioned they decided to modify the Model S so that it now has essentially Tesla's version of the Mennekes connector. So now they have different cars, and for even more difference they are going to use a Chademo Adapter for Japan, supposedly.

My opinion is the world would be a simpler place if they had just used the NISSAN as the defacto worldwide standard (Basic J1772 for low end models, and an additional at extra cost Chademo Connector for high end models or those who want dc charging).

· · 4 years ago

By single phase brick I mean 2 wire dc, such as the Chademo Jack.

· · 4 years ago

Well, here is to the hope that lots of combo CHAdeMO and SAE-CCS DC fast-chargers get installed in the coming years. I think that would greatly help speed the adoption of EVs.

And no one should even THINK about creating another new standard.

· · 4 years ago

@JakeY: I'm about to give up on this, but I'll try one more time, after which I'll just have to assume you're misunderstanding on purpose. What I'm saying is that if CCS is optional, it seems unlikely buyers in the U.S. will want to pay extra for it any time soon, even those that would be willing to pay extra for CHAdeMO, because for buyers in 2013 and 2014, CHAdeMO will be highly useful, and CCS will not. IF that winds up being true in Germany as well (more CHAdeMO on the ground, CCS an extra-cost option), there may not be that many cars bought with CCS, regardless of its "availability". That scenario would seem to call into question Laurent's prediction of CCS all-German dominance by the spring - so we'll just have to see.

That's it, that's all I mean to say about the significance of how CCS is sold. Forget any bets, forget any precise breakdowns of LEAF sales w/CHAdeMO, forget anything else where you want to demand numbers from others that you don't have yourself.

On to new business . . .

The NRG/evGO settlement to which you refer is NOT guaranteed to deploy CCS on initial installation but WILL definitely support CHAdeMO on day one, so they may well be adding to the CHAdeMO count before they add/enable CCS support. And their commitment to deploy those 200 chargers has an end date somewhere in 2015 last time I checked. So overall, I don't think you can count those chickens just yet. Again, we'll know soon enough.

The REAL point here is that the introduction of CCS did far more harm than good to a nascent EV industry, and was advanced by parties whose primary interest was disrupting Nissan's early leadership position by stirring FUD into the DC quick-charging story. CCS doesn't do anything beyond what CHAdeMO already provides, while lacking the benefit of experience gained in thousands of installations and millions of real world charging sessions. I think we all understand that even 100kW charging won't be the end of the story, so this monkey wrench was needlessly tossed mid-game into the deployment of a transitional technology. These government shenanigans (be they in the form of GM's failed pleadings for the California legislature to kill CHAdeMO or this perhaps more successful play at the EP) are pure old-fashioned political hackery and favoritism, intervention in a situation where CHAdeMO's first-mover advantage and network effects should otherwise have already determined the outcome.

While we may have to resign ourselves to this mess, for the life of me, I cannot understand why any EV enthusiast of any nationality would be cheering it on. CHAdeMO was developed by players committed to the deployment and practical success of EVs in the real world. The CCS guys, led in the U.S. by the crew that crushed the EV1s, are not our friends - get that through your heads.

· · 4 years ago

EvDriver, the Type 2 plug is actually a bit bigger than the SAE J1772, which IEC 62196 refers to as Type 1.

Spec, I know of no SAE document that refers to the Type 2 plug at all yet. So no, the SAE Combo is not the same as Type 2. IEC 62196 Type 1 is a 3 phase plug with more pins than the single phase Type 1 / J1772, but other wise the protocols are identical.

I don't think any national group is trying to force out another, there are Chaedmo people and SAE people and IEC people all working together. Many attends meeting with all 3 groups. The issue is that Chademo is DC only, both J1772 and IEC Type 2 can handle both AC and DC. None are elegant perhaps, but cost drives everything, so a multifunction plug matters. Tesla fixed the elegance issue, at a cost.

Market economic are messy. Get over it. Adapters are cheap. We will all survive.

· · 4 years ago

The elephant in the room is that AC Propulsion's patent on "reductive charging" expired. I believe that is the technology that Renault uses in the Zoe to get power levels equivalent to Chademo at a cost of about $300, versus $30000 for Chademo.

There are some limitations: boost mode only (not buck mode nor buck-boost are possible), only works with asynchronous motors (not permanent magnet motors), and importantly it does not provide galvanic isolation. So isolation monitors are required similar to those in transformerless solar PV inverters.

There are some new patents out of Sweden that fix the isolation problem.

The point is that Chademo will die because it is not cost effective.

· · 4 years ago

>>> and GM appears to have failed spectacularly in their anti-CHAdeMO efforts. <<<<

Oh, I'm sure the GM skids are still getting greased in any place they think there's a possibility of success, today or tomorrow.

The great news, stepping back from the particulars and the boasts, is that we all think this is something worth fighting about. Even though most automakers in the world have little interest in mass market EVs today, they seem to care about this battle.

EVs are being moved forward, even if it takes a step back, or two.

· · 4 years ago

@jamcl3 [on AC Propulsion's Reductive Charging]: Well, I'd heard ACP's name before (Tesla and all), but must profess ignorance as to just what they contributed, so had to hit their web site and read up. From what they've published there, it seems to me there are current and future problems with ACP's RC, albeit rather different ones. You know a lot more about this than I do, so I might be missing something, but assuming their site's current:

The Problem of The Present: Because RC integrates the charger with a specific motor type, it isn't available for retrofit. It's either part of the EV's design or it's not. And unless you have a Zoe, I guess it's not (if you're right in supposing that, though I wonder, since I thought Caméléon went up to 43kW, and ACP only claims 18kW for their RC tech). Are you aware of any current EVs that have deployed a RC licensed from ACP or using a similar approach? I see Tesla stopped using ACP after the Roadster, but perhaps the Model S employs some variant of the same general idea.

The Problem of The Future: AC Propulsion's arguments for their RC are based more on the "opportunity charging" model than the "massive charging for long hauls" model. That's perfectly sensible for city cars, less attractive for road trip vehicles. While likely a good formula for Europe, I have my doubts about it for the U.S., where any constraint on the open road fantasy is considered a Scary Problem by vehicle marketers. The long term goal that it seems everyone is working toward for the U.S. market is "How do we improve on Tesla functionality for 1/4 the price?", which everyone assumes will mean something heftier than Superchargers (Hyperchargers?) to provide a user experience roughly analogous to stopping in at a gasoline filling station (which I'm not convinced is necessary for EVs to be useful, but moving on), and unless I'm reading this wrong, that's beyond RC's capabilities (again, 18kW?).

So for The Present, ACP didn't get the key players to sign on to RC (unreasonable license terms or failure to demonstrate advantages or who knows what), and we now have CHAdeMO and CCS instead to handle Level 3, which it seems to me is already beyond the limits for RC. And for The Future, whatever virtues RC may have (especially unencumbered by IP claims), by the time it overcomes the inertia of current solutions, I'd imagine we'll have moved on to whatever's beyond Level 3 charging.

· · 4 years ago

@jamcl3 wrote: >>>>> Market economic are messy. Get over it. Adapters are cheap. We will all survive.<<<<<<

Wait a minute - an adapter to let a CCS car use CHAdeMO or vice versa can be done cheaply? Has anyone actually done this? If so, then yeah, this is a tempest in a teapot. But my understanding was that any such device would need to be semi-smart to fake-out/translate between protocols, and also safely handle massive current flows (while dangling between a car and a charger?), none of which seems consistent with "surprisingly affordable".

I realize I have been letting my aggravation with CCS overflow a bit, but I've come to it honestly. Because messy as markets may be, that's not what we're seeing here. We're seeing political corruption and stinking backroom deals. The reality with which I was perfectly content a couple of months back was just eat the 5% or so premium (or so it's been claimed) for dual-format Level 3 chargers, consider it a lesson learned, and try to do better with Hyperchargers (or whatever). That's a rational market response to a tangled situation, and certainly not the end of the world. Unfortunately, repeated efforts to kill CHAdeMO by using government muscle to force an all-CCS solution (and please don't tell us everybody's holding hands and singing kumbaya, because we've got the press quotes of GM's droids playing very hard ball on this), a seedy drama of which this EP sleaze seems just the latest episode, are just wearing my patience down to a nub. If this garbage stops and we can just agree on dual-format for Level 3 and get on with deploying it, that would be wonderful.

But if that's not good enough for some folks, as Laurent's provocative little "death to CHAdeMO" hatchet job here seems to indicate, then hell no, I most definitely do NOT agree that CCS is the superior solution and we must retire CHAdeMO. Screw CCS and screw GM -- in the U.S., let's just stick with deploying what has been PROVEN to work, and focus on improvements for the next level up. If the MEPs want to play footsie with their national champions and screw their own EV buyers, let that be Europe's problem.

· · 4 years ago

Just install Combo CHAdeMO and SAE-CCS DC-fast chargers and everyone will be happy. The incremental cost of making them support both standards probably raises the cost of the charger by no more than 10%. And NO MORE NEW STANDARDS.

And speaking of CHAdeMO and SAE-CCS DC-fast chargers, NRG, where are those evGo 'Freedom Stations' for California that you promised? They were supposed to start appearing early in 2013 . . . not a single one yet as far as I know. Get on it or Jerry Brown is gonna slap you around.

· · 4 years ago

Hi: I skimmed most of the comments but, having just returned from Scotland, I say this: In the UK, they drive on the other side of the road and the cars are built with right hand drive. Same car sent to the US can be fitted with CHAdeMo just as it is fitted with US EPA emissions equipment and USDOT crash equipment. The headstart CHAdeMO has in the US is important. It would seem to be an EV sales disincentive to say "Buy your SAE combo equiped car now and wait until the infrastructure catches up. Use the level 2 chargers till then."
On the other hand, Nissan and others can say "Your CHAdeMo equipped LEAF is ready for longer range trips today. Enjoy fast charging now as we build out our already approved and proven network.
I don't see what the Europeans decide to in Europe makes much difference to us.

· · 4 years ago

. . .and also left side driver controls. You just can't drive from London to Louisville.

· · 4 years ago

@Art Vatsky wrote:>>>>>>>>The headstart CHAdeMO has in the US is important. It would seem to be an EV sales disincentive to say "Buy your SAE combo equiped car now and wait until the infrastructure catches up. Use the level 2 chargers till then."<<<<<<<<

This seems to me the essence of the CCS problem. Especially if it's a relatively expensive option on a low-cost EV like a Spark, why whould I pay extra for a CCS socket on it if there aren't CCS chargers available where I want to drive? And if people aren't buying CCS-ready cars, why would people installing chargers spend extra to provide CCS support?

This is made worse by the lack of commitment to mass-market BEV sales by CCS's alliance members. None have firm plans for U.S. sales beyond CARB-compliance levels, or in many cases even any sales outside of CARB-led states. With numbers that low and CCS on even fewer (because it's an unattractive option as noted above), the number of CCS-ready cars on U.S. roads appears guaranteed to be a fraction of their CHAdeMO counterparts for quite a while, if not indefinitely.

I suspect all this is why the CCS alliance strategy so far has been "play the ref" rather than "play the ball" - the ball was in play (and the other team scoring) long before they bothered to show up for the game.

· · 4 years ago

"The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated"
Mark Twain

http://fionahall.org.uk/en/article/2013/713537/no-electric-car-charger-b...

No electric car charger ban – Hall
August 12, 2013 4:24 PM

Following a meeting with representatives from Nissan and ZeroCarbonFutures, the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the European Parliament, Fiona Hall MEP, has quashed industry rumours that the CHAdeMO quick chargers widely installed across the UK and Europe will be banned under draft European legislation.

North East Euro MP Fiona, who sits on the Industry Committee in the European Parliament, said: “CHAdeMO quick chargers are not going to be banned.

“The draft legislation proposes the introduction of a new, additional quick charger called Combo although there a currently no Combo chargers or Combo-compatible cars on the road.

“I will be working to make sure that the legal text states clearly that CHAdeMO chargers will continue in use and that the new regulations from 2018 are all about introducing multi-standard chargers so that all types of electric vehicles are catered for.

“These multi-standard chargers are currently being installed under the TEN-T project by a consortium of Nissan, BMW, ESB, Renault and VW. This is exactly the joint technological approach which is needed to give all users of electric vehicles the access to quick chargers they need.”

· · 4 years ago

@TonyWilliams: Amen to that.

· · 3 years ago

Don't buy an EV because they promote free charging. It's very likely to be temporary to sucker people to buy their vehicle then they switch policy on you at a later date to no longer be free.
Especially for those that have bought or lease their Nissan leaf, it appears Nissan is no longer offering free quick charging to existing leaf customers around my area in CA. Even at my local Nissan dealer, EG Nissan, CA, where I bought the car and the fact that they said quick charging are free to their customers helped convinced me to buy it are No longer valid after April 16, 2014 is a Nissan Corporate decision. So if you ever do want to travel a little further than usual and had planned on using a quick charging station along the way, you will be in for a rude awakening that you will not be able to charge it. Even If you have a charge point card, that doesn’t work as their quick chargers are now maintain through a company NRG - ie. EVgo. EVgo charging fees are high in my opinion, requires a monthly subscription to get access to charging like quick chargers (each quick charging can cost $10.95 to charge for a 30 minute session). I found out the hard way last Saturday. Also that would make a leaf cost more than a Prius for energy. Took 20+ minutes on the phone, they ask for all sorts of information, almost like buying a car, then after signing up in hopes to get a quick charge in so I can get home, they end up telling me that it takes 72 hours to activate my account. So no quick charging for that day which I ended up needing to go to an L2 charging station for 3 hours. Very disappointed at Nissan, imo Nissan has alienated their existing leaf customers with a bait and switch on quick charging.

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