Volkswagen Settles on Standard Electric Car Battery, From China

By Alysha Webb · November 26, 2011

VW e-Up electric car

Volkswagen's electric cars, like the upcoming e-Up, will likely use battery cells and modules sourced from China.

Volkswagen will use the same battery module design for all its electric vehicles globally across all its brands, according to Dr. Tobias Giebel, head of the Volkswagen Research Lab in Shanghai. Those battery modules and the battery cells in them are likely to be sourced from China, he said.

“You have to be focused beyond the cell level. That is the only way,” said Giebel at the EV Battery Forum Asia 2011 in Shanghai. The Forum took place on November 7 - 9, 2011.

Speakers at the Forum, such as Dr. Ying Wang, deputy CTO of Shanghai Advanced Traction Battery Systems Co., Ltd—the joint venture between Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp. and battery maker A123 Systems of Massachusetts—were not too optimistic about the capabilities of China’s domestic battery producers. “Battery suppliers in China don’t really know vehicles,” she said.

Volkswagen’s Giebel was more optimistic. In an interview with PluginCars.com, Giebel said Volkswagen is working with local battery manufacturers in China to produce a product that meets Volkswagen’s global standards. “We believe the future of battery cell sourcing is in China,” he said. Today, China’s lithium-ion battery makers are focused on consumer technology, said Giebel. Its automotive-grade batteries are not up to the high-level vehicle traction battery manufacturers in Korea or Japan, he said.

But Volkswagen is working closely with about 20 of China’s than 100 battery producers, and is already seeing improvement. “We think in a couple of years we will have really strong suppliers in fully domestic companies,” said Giebel. When they are, Volkswagen will use the same source for its Asia, Europe, and the United States operations, he said.

That could mean a significant amount of business because Volkswagen will use a standard module for all electric vehicles across all its brands. That means all hybrids, plug-in hybrid electric, battery electric, and fuel cell vehicles produced under the Volkswagen Group’s 10 nameplates, which include Volkswagen, Skoda, Audi, Seat, Bentley, Porsche, Scania, Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Volkswagen commercial vehicles.

“The module shape and number of cells will be the same,” said Giebel. “The module is not part of any international norm. It is a company internal standard.” Inside the module, Volkswagen might adapt the connection between the cells to vary the number of parallel and serial cells, said Giebel. The module is a company internal standard, he added.

Volkswagen’s current parallel hybrid models, including the Touareg SUV, have a different technology, but the company will use the standard module concept first on battery electric and plug-in hybrid electric models, said Giebel. “The extension to parallel hybrid (HEV) will be decided later,” he said.

Comments

· alt-e · 1 year ago

Standerization is good in many ways. Higher volume production per module type for lower cost. Faster vehicle designs. Easier part supply logistics. Easier training for maintenance.

· EVNow · 1 year ago

Not sure what they mean by standard module. Usually the hybrid battery is optimized for power density and EV battery for energy density.

· Londo Bell (not verified) · 1 year ago

Translation: we don't really care ('bou plug-in hybrids or BEV), and will stick with diesel.

· Henrik2 (not verified) · 1 year ago

The VW up! battery electric is to be sold by early 2013 according to VW. This means VW has already chosen a battery supplier and signed a binding contract for delivery of specific volume. My best guess is that VW will source its battery cells from BYD as they signed a MOU with BYD in may 2009. See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/vw-byd-20090525.html

I think the VW up will be the lowest priced and highway capable EV on the market in 2013 but it is disappointing that VW's up! does not support 50kW fast charging. The best it can do is 1 hour to charge 80% of the 18kWh battery. This is a design flaw that will limit its sales.

The shorter the EV range the more vital it is that the EV can charge fast. And fast means minimum 50kW as possible in the Leaf and preferable 100kW as possible in Model S or BYD’s e6.

I have no doubt that the low priced gas and natural gas versions of the up will sell extremely well (possibly making it the world most sold car) but VW needs to get serious with fast charging in order to make a successful BEV version of the up!

· Henrik2 (not verified) · 1 year ago

If I were to advise VW on how to make fast charging possible for the BEV up! I would recommend that VW talk with Toshiba about using their lithium titanium cells. Mitsubishi in Japan sells a version of their MiEV and their MINICAB-MiEV vehicles that use these batteries to enable 80% charge in just 15 minutes at 50kW. The battery pack is a 10.5 kWh pack giving these vehicles a 60 miles range. The Mitsubishi vehicles weights about 1100 kg which is the same as the VW up in the battery version. The Toshiba battery is also extremely durable allowing for at least 6000, 0% to 100% charges before the battery is degraded to 80% of its original capacity. If VW made a decision to develop a version of the up with that battery by year end 2012 it should be possible to start selling it by 2015.

In my opinion a VW up with a fast charging Toshiba battery would be more attractive than the MiEV because the up! looks better and it has far more space for luggage (1000 liters with the back seats folded down).

15 minutes to 80% charge using a Toshiba battery in the MINICAB-MiEV
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publish/pressrelease_en/products/2011/n...

· Henrik2 (not verified) · 1 year ago

I just discovered that VW and Toshiba already made a deal to develop the battery for the electric up! back in February 2009. See http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/02/12/us-volkswagen-toshiba-electric...

Now, I am not so sure BYD will deliver the battery for the 2013 up. It seems to be Toshiba and a 15 minutes quick charge is therefore also a possibility with the 2013 up.

· Henrik2 (not verified) · 1 year ago

Sorry for all these posts.

It just struck me that VW might plan to launch the up! EV with two battery choices just like Mitsubishi in Japan is doing for their MiEV. So maybe we will see a fast charging up! with a Toshiba battery that charges in 15 minutes and has a range of about 50 miles and another up with a BYD battery that charges in an hour and has a range of 65 miles.

· EVNow · 1 year ago

@Henrik2

You don't need the Toshoba ScIB for fast charging in 15 minutes. Mitsu iMiEV in US & Leaf do this with Li-MN batteries.

· Henrik2 (not verified) · 1 year ago

EVNow

At this link Mitsubishi say it takes 15 minutes with the Toshiba battery and 35 minutes with their Li-MN batteries. http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publish/pressrelease_en/products/2011/n...

Also the Leaf is 30 minutes to 80% according to Nissan’s home page I quote” It takes about ~30 minutes to 80% at a 480 volt quick-charge station.”

· EVNow · 1 year ago

@Henrik2

I didn't realize you distinguished between 30 & 15 minutes. Is 15 minutes vs 30 minutes worth the 50% or more cost of the SCIB - apart from smaller energy density ?

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

@EVNow,
Acronym check please: what is an SCIB?

· alt-e · 1 year ago

"Super Charge Ion Battery". It is Toshiba's brand name for their titanate li ion batteries, known for fast charge/discharge and long cycle life but lower energy density and higher cost. Although they use one inherently more expensive material, some of the higher cost might be due to low volume production and brand name. So they will always be pricey, but maybe not by so much as they are now.

Their website: http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821

· alt-e · 1 year ago

By the way, combining this thread with the battery safety thread going on today: titanate batteries are very stable when it comes to thermal runnaway or being shorted. I have seen people go at titanate batteries with a nail like something out of a horror movie with no safety issues. With proper battery pack and car design, they should not require liquid cooling while driving. I don't know if they have enough thermal mass to avoid liquid cooling while quick charging.

· ampted (not verified) · 1 year ago

From my time time spent in China it seems there are more VW's than anything else on the road. I think this is more about the Germans keeping their trade balance there. Everyone knows the Chinese make the cheapest cells but the quality is below Japan, Korea and the USA.

· Chris O (not verified) · 1 year ago

Of course if VW were serious about electric motoring the focus wouldn't be on the packaging of the cells but about getting the right cell chemistry, preferably an innovative one that would put it ahead of the competition like Tesla's new high energy density/low cost Panasonic cells.

· alt-e · 1 year ago

If VW were serious, they would be starting a waiting list of the first 10 or 20 thousand people to buy a mass produced EV from them :)

· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago

I suppose the good news here in regards to potential EV progress from VW is that they didn't introduce yet another concept car while announcing this battery pack standardization. I don't know if Alysha chose to use an older photo for her article, but the above image of the now-familiar e-Up(And Coming!) gives me some confidence that VW is ready to move forward - however glacially - with details underneath the sheet metal.

Perhaps with a standardized battery module size VW is thinking that Better Place battery swapping is going to be a more important asset to them than DC Quick Charging.

I forget . . . is VW fighting the CHAdeMO plug standard or are they behind it?

· Alysha Webb · 1 year ago

Please note that VW won't start sourcing batteries from China now. In fact, it doesn't anticipate Chinese battery companies will be up to global standards for several years. Re: VW and CHAdeMO. VW was one of seven automakers--Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen is the complete list--that a month or so ago agreed to a combined plug standard for Levels 1-3. They also agreed to the same communication standard. The standard is backwards compatible to the current J1772 design.

· EVNow · 1 year ago

@Benjamin Nead · "I forget . . . is VW fighting the CHAdeMO plug standard or are they behind it?"
Not just you, even VW are confused. They are one of the gang of 7 who signed on to the new "standard". But they have also said they will support CHAdeMO in Europe.

· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago

Thanks for the clarification, Alysha and EVNow. This backward compatible (DC capable) J1772 plug, of course, has been referred to here at times as "Frankenplug" . . .

http://www.plugincars.com/one-size-fits-all-combo-plug-can-handle-fast-c...

My thoughts on this is akin to the old Betamax vs. VHS tape format war. I originally thought "Frankenplug" to be a good idea but, by the time anyone in the "Gang of 7" finally gets around to bringing their own EVs to the American shores in any meaningful quantities, Nissan and Mitsubishi - both in the CHAdeMO camp - will have made such a large market penetration here that CHAdeMO will simply become the de facto US standard. There is already something like 540 public DC Quick Charger facilities in the US right now and I'm guessing that not one of them is "Frankenplug" equipped.

· Oleg (not verified) · 48 weeks ago

We need the UP! ... and many cars just like it. VW has once again displayed its cowardice by not bringing it to the US. I'm a carguy and I approach all of my automotive purchases from an enthusiasts point of veiw. I am, therefore, rather unlikely to buy a Toyota, Honda, Nissan or Chevy. Mazda and Ford are starting to look good but no non German manufacturer reaches the level of design and build quality that I've come to demand in my cars. Since VW is the only German car I can currently afford, I want them to bring US everything they make.

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