I think that if you ask EV drivers if they want their vehicle to creep forward when they let off the brake, that you will find drivers who are used to manual transmissions don't want creepy cars and people who really like automatic transmissions like the creep factor.
Should Electric Cars Give You the Creep?
The all-electric Mini E doesn't have "idle creep." Should it?
As electric vehicles begin to make their way into showrooms, there will invariably be comparisons to internal combustion engine vehicles. After all, that’s what we have been driving for around 100 years, and that is what we’re used to.
Take the Brief Survey!
Here's your chance to say if you think electric cars should be the same or different from gas-powered cars. Takes less than five minutes.
I was recently discussing with a friend whether or not EVs should have the automatic transmission “idle creep” like internal combustion engine (ICE ) vehicles do. He wasn’t an experienced EV driver and when he drove my MINI E, he was startled by the fact that it rolls forwards or backwards if you are on a decline/incline—even if the car is in Drive mode. He didn’t like it.
The MINI E, while simulating an automatic transmission—since there are no gears to shift—acts like a manual transmission in neutral when stopped and will roll if you don’t keep your foot on the brake pedal. There is an anti-rollback feature, but it requires you to press the brake pedal strongly when stopped or it doesn’t activate. He didn’t know about it and didn’t press the brake pedal hard enough to activate it. Since EVs really don’t have transmissions, just a single speed gearbox, they will naturally act this way unless the manufacturers build a faux creep into the software. Nissan, Chevy and Tesla have incorporated such a creep into their EVs. Ford hasn’t commented on it yet and so far BMW hasn’t included it on the MINI-E or ActiveE.
A recent poll at Tesla Motor’s Club had 70 percent of the respondents in favor of having the creep on their EV—yet most EV drivers I speak to say they don’t want it.
The Same But Different
This issue is a matter of what the EV buying public wants, or what automakers think they want.
For instance, on PluginCars.com we’ve has a number of discussions about the Nissan LEAF’s instrumentation. Should the car’s state of charge be in a numeric percentage, or did Nissan make the right decision to mimic the fuel gauge of an ICE vehicle and use a simple bar graph like their gasoline cars have? Does using what customers are used to make the transition to electric drive easier to adjust to? If there are too many differences, will the average customer shy away from them because there is just too much to adjust to all at once?
I’m sure many of the hardcore electric vehicle advocates—like me—might instinctively say “No, Don’t mimic anything from an ICE car. Make the EV driving experience as pure and unique as possible!” I’m ready for the whole vehicle to be different. The instrumentation, the braking system, the sound it makes, the refueling process, the materials used to build it, the electronics and on and on.
For the record, I stand by my belief that the state of charge needs to be front and center and be in a numeric percentage. I don’t really like how Nissan display’s it on the LEAF, but on some of the other issues, I’m not so sure. That’s why I think it’s time for a survey that we can share with automakers.
Speak up, folks. To creep or not to creep, that is the question. And what about that state of charge question? Should EVs be “normal,” or “break the mold?”
Feel free to leave comments below, but clicking to the brief survey—just five required questions—will help PluginCars.com organize answers into a form that’s easy to communicate to whomever will listen.
Comments
· Lad (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
Remember: electric cars are being build for the general Public, not for race drivers or EV lovers; The goals between these groups are entirely different. Most drivers could care less about all that wonderful technology and performance...they want a car that saves them gas money, doesn't kill them with fumes and bad air, and works as much like the cars they currently drive as possible. After all, these things have had a hundred years to establish their place in our American culture. To creep is American transmission apple pie and to have "hill stop" is just plain old American security.
· Anonymous (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
I have had EVs with creep (Tesla Roadster and RAV4 EV) and those without creep (Solectria Force, Corbin Sparrow and a host of other conversions). I like the creep alot. The main reason is that it keeps the car from jerking forward when you try to start forward. I think this is because the creep is giving the car a small forward push that I guess locks the drive gears in place before your less subtle push of the accelerator. My Forces and Sparrow can start moving quite suddenly if I am not being extra careful. Also helps for starting on hills and since the car is totally quiet, it lets you know you have power if that is in doubt. Of course this may not be a fair comparison, because the Roadster and RAV4s are much more refined vehicles than a Force or Sparrow, but that is my experience so far.
With respect to the SOC, I certainly would rather have an accurate digital readout of the SOC.
· regman · 39 weeks ago
The way I see it, different driving attributes (A-Pedal feel, B-Pedal feel, hill hold, gauges, etc.) that EVs can provide fall under 3 catagories:
1. Those that are required to be different to provide better efficiency or safety,
2. Those that can be made different because of the type of propulsion system (direct drive electric motor),
3. Those that can be made different to accommodate drivers taste.
If engineered correctly, there should be little attributes that fall under the first category. With advanced brake systems (like the Nissan, Ford, GM, Toyota and Hyundai xEVs), you don't have to provide heavy A-Pedal braking to get efficiency. You also don't need to provide a "one button that does everything" like an econ mode that changes accelerator pedal feel, AC settings, etc. If you don't want to waste energy on AC or Heat, turn them off. If you don't want to waste energy accelerating hard, don't step on the accelerator pedal hard.
Items that fall into the second category are things like the SOC gauge. Obviously, the fuel system is different and knowing the exact % is more important. Therefore, a fuel gauge type bar gauge may not be the best.
The third category are all those things that can be different like creep feel, A-Pedal braking feel, shifter type, various gauges (both new and familiar), etc. The best way to provide these is to make them selectable/customizable to the customer and not force a "new" experience on the driver.
My general belief is that if it does not fall under the first category and it is not made customizable, it should be as close to a gas vehicle as possible. Making something new and different just because you can will scare away potential customers that do not want to get used to something different, especially if the xEV vehicle is a second car and they are going back and forth between a gas car and a xEV car. Remember, there are only so may early adaptor EV geeks out there and the OEMs must satisfy the average customer in order to increase sales of these vehicles.
· ex-EV1 driver · 39 weeks ago
The survey needs a "don't care" option. I, personally don't really care.
Alternatively, since the "creep" function in an electric car is a software configurable feature, unlike how it is unavoidable in an automatic ICE transmission and unavailable in a manual ICE transmission, why not just let it be user selectable?
· Charles (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
One of the things I dislike about automatic transmissions is creep. When Ford and Toyota put it in their hybrids, I thought it was a mistake. I still think it is a mistake. Now having a functional anti-rollback feature is nice. If I was programming an EV I would check to see if it is in reverse. If not I would use breaks or motor to keep it from rolling back. If the computer knows the direction of roll (quad encoders for the anti-lock breaks) then is should be a very simple software change.
· Michael Thwaite (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
No creep; we've moved on from that. Modern cars don't creep, modern automatics don't creep. It's a flaw in the torque converter that wastes power; I'm sure all automatic manufacturers would love to eradicate creep if they could make it a smooth take-off but most can't. I take the point of Anon's comment above that it can eradicate the slack in the gear train but a small bias would achieve same; the MINI E can have the slack taken out of its drive train with a slight weight on the accelerator.
The good news is that it's all software so I could have my creep switched off on my Tesla if they'd program it so and others could enable it; you could even enable pseudo-random loss of power followed by sudden restoration of power to really simulate an old automatic car and even simulate lack of low-end grunt and trailing off performance just before the jolt... knock seconds off the 0-60 time for old times sake... throw in a loud clanking metal grinding exhaust booming soundtrack and a bad-smell generator and we could be right back in the 20th century!... EVs can do all that and/or just whoosh off the line gently re-arranging your internal organs like something from, well, today.
· betterfuture (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
This is an awesome car. I had the chance to test drive it last month and I am totally sold on finding the right EV for me in the coming months.
Check out my EV experience with the Mini E on my blog:
http://thespeculativetechinvestor.blogspot.com/2011/08/electric-mini-who...
· Jose G · 39 weeks ago
Whatever the feature, the question should always be "what's a better user experience?" not "what's the experience that drivers are used to?"
Within a week of driving their new car, the 2nd question doesn't matter any more.
· Jose G · 39 weeks ago
In an EV, a lot of these things should be options in the software.
· abasile · 39 weeks ago
I'm with ex-EV1 on the "creep"; I don't really care one way or the other.
Yes, of course there should be a finer-grained SOC gauge.
· EVNow · 39 weeks ago
I'm with ex-EV1 on the "creep"; I don't really care one way or the other.
But I don't want the car to rollback. That is awful. Leaf has a hill assist feature - but I want the no rollback too.
· NeilBlanchard · 39 weeks ago
I'll take it without creep, thanks. The very beginning of the accelerator pedal travel should be gentle.
And I'll take no regen on the accelerator pedal either, please. The brake pedal is where all the regen should be, and when you lift your right foot -- freewheel coasting! :-)
Neil
· Charles (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
Neil,
I want regen on the accelerator pedal. When the accelerator goes home the regen should keep the speed within 2MPH or so of the speed when the accelerator pedal hit home. If your foot stays on the accelerator, even a mm, regen should be off. Also that first couple of mm could be before the motor kicks in.
· abasile · 39 weeks ago
@Neil: I don't find that "pulse and glide" makes a lot of sense with an EV, due to the high efficiency of the electric motor. When driving the Prius, I use P&G to minimize running the gasoline engine, and hence do much more coasting than when driving the LEAF (which is now the "primary" car I drive). In the LEAF, particularly in ECO mode, I really like being able to control both acceleration and deceleration on the "A" pedal. Being able to coast easily is nice, but secondary.
· Paul Scott (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
I like the creep. I'm used to it and feel weird when it isn't there. I drove a Phoenix SUT a few years ago and found the lack of creep strange. I agree that it should be user choice.
SOC in numeric form to a tenth of a percent, please. This is not negotiable. Marc Geller and I have been pounding on Mark Perry about this and have gotten him to accept its inevitability, but he says it's going to be a year. I have no good reason why.
I also want a programmable regen 0-100%. The e-box from AC Propulsion has this and it's great. Could be more sophisticated as a wheel on the steering wheel.
· NeilBlanchard · 39 weeks ago
I wasn't advocating P&G, but merely being able to coast easily and predictably. Coasting is the most efficient way to cover ground, so having 3 modes rather than just 2 means that you can save energy.
The FVT eVaro is set up this way, and it goes ~125 miles on a 21kWh pack. It gets 100% of it's active braking from regen, and it can do 60-0 in 130 feet. The inboard friction brakes are only used to hold the car still, and/or in emergencies.
Also, on long drives driving a car that requires a lot of fine control on the accelerator pedal to hold it in *just* the *right* position means that you will get more muscle fatigue; than if you can just lift your right foot and coast down a slope and not lose any speed while you stretch your leg and rest your muscles.
If there *is* creep, then how does that affect regen and coasting? In other words, if there is regen when you lift your foot off the accelerator pedal, then how then does it also creep?
Neil
· Jose G · 39 weeks ago
Preventing rollback can be nice. However, my old Honda Civic rolls back, and I actually found it useful to parallel park up-hill without having to switch to reverse. That's an edge case though and even in that case it would require less skill if you know the car doesn't rollback on drive.
For the creep, on one hand it lets you know the car is running and ready to go. On the other hand, if the car only goes when I tell it to, and I don't have to hold the brake once I'm stopped, then I can hit the gas that much faster.
· dgpcolorado · 39 weeks ago
I drive manual transmission cars and always shift to neutral when stopped to avoid "riding the clutch". So, I am perfectly comfortable with no "creep" and with using the parking brake to avoid rolling back when accelerating from a stop on a steep hill. After decades of doing this, it is second nature to me.
But I am keenly aware that the vast majority of "stomp-and-steer" drivers aren't familiar with this sort of driving, so I'd make some sort of hill-holding function a default setting but allow it to be turned off. The last thing I want is some new EV driver rolling into the car behind on a hill because he/she is too slow on the accelerator from a stop. But, to creep forward with no brake or accelerator pressure? Whatever for?
The SOC issue has been beaten to death in other threads. I can't fathom why it isn't offered on every EV as a matter of course. Yes, I am aware that extrapolating an accurate SOC from small changes in voltage, temperature, and current can be a bit tricky, but it surely could be approximated with the correct algorithm. Having to interpolate SOC from bars on a display is an unnecessary nuisance. But I disagree with Paul Scott that it should be to a "tenth of a percent"; to me that is "TMI" since it can't be measured accurately enough for that that figure to the right of the decimal to be significant or useful. The "illusion of precision" and all that.
· miimura (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
IMHO, hill-holder function should be a standard feature in D and R. Creep and simulated engine braking regen should be user selectable. I would personally set no creep and max regen simulated engine braking. I think it would be easier to implement the hill-holder by monitoring the motor commutation or motor hall sensors than the ABS sensors. I don't think ABS sensors can indicate direction.
· Markus (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
I don't necessarily need it, but it wouldn't bother me if it was on my car. I do think that many people would be surprised not to have it if they are accustomed to automatic transmissions, but they would adapt very quickly. It's just software, right? Have a setting to disable it and and the issue is resolved.
· Jim McL (not verified) · 39 weeks ago
I don't like EV creep. But if you have creep, I say the more important question is what kind? Constant power or constant speed? My Think City EV has constant power creep, good for maybe 3 mph on the flat (too fast) but not enough to keep you from rolling backwards a little on a really steep hill. Software should be able to do constant speed.
Once Think gets done moving the engineering to Germany, I suspect they will get on it. Unless they need to learn Russian first. Ha.
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Oh God please no. It's not necessary especially if the reason they add it is so electric cars feel more like gas cars. Standard shift cars don't need it, why do these?