Prius Plug-in Offers 15 Electric Miles, But Retains Wimpy Feel

By Brad Berman · September 19, 2011

With Friday’s announcement of a $32,000 price tag for the plug-in version of the 2012 Toyota Prius, the market acceptance of plug-in vehicles will be tested like never before. After a federal tax credit of $2,500, the car dips down below $30,000.

It’s not that the Prius Plug-in Hybrid sells for so much less than competitors like the Chevy Volt—or that it's less expensive at all than the Nissan LEAF (after its $7,500 tax credit). It’s that it stacks up right against the top-of-line existing Prius—the established version without plug-in capability—which this year goes for $28,790. In other words, consumers wanting stellar fuel economy will soon be able to choose between a 50-MPG Prius with all the available bells and whistles—or the one that by plugging will earn an estimated MPG-equivalent of 87 miles to the gallon. What would you choose? (The cheapest no-plug Prius starts around $22k.)

The Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid’s 4.4 kilowatt-hour battery pack will provide up to 15 all-electric miles after a full charge. That’s a jump of 15 percent from the pre-production model. Unlike the other two plug-in hybrids already on the market—the Chevy Volt and Fisker Karma—the Prius-with-plug openly blends the use of gasoline with all-electric propulsion. Yes, if driven with a light foot, the Prius Plug-in Hybrid can stay in all-electric mode—assuming there’s still juice in the battery—up to 62 miles-per-hour. But the car will fire up its gas engine at any sign of real acceleration.

The primary benefit of plug-in hybrids is that it can travel purely on electricity for many miles—but that it eliminates any worries about EV range or the need for electric vehicle infrastructure. When the battery drains, the car becomes a conventional hybrid with range comparable or better than gas cars—and with the ability to pump in petrol when you need more.

That convenience is real and important—as is the ability for the Plug-in Prius to fully charge with a standard 110-volt outlet in 3.5 to 4 hours. (Toyota also announced a price of $999, including installation, for the official Prius 240-volt charger, supplied by Leviton, but you have to wonder who would bother to spend the money to cut charge times down to 1.5 hours.)

The Joys of Incrementalism

There’s more to celebrate. Toyota deserves kudos for offering plug-in capability without any compromise of the passenger and cargo space of the standard Prius liftback—making it the most versatile of plug-ins so far to reach the market. This car is much roomier than a LEAF or Volt. The Ford Focus Electric gives up nearly half its trunk to make room for batteries. At the same time, the efficiency of the Prius-with-plug after the battery is drained is an estimated 49 mpg—just one mpg less than the regular Prius and blowing away the Chevy Volt’s so-called “charge-sustaining” mileage of 37 mpg.

All of this bodes well for sales of the Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid—especially considering the strong loyalty found among the more than 1 million Prius owners in the U.S.—who have taken a first step toward electric mobility and want a bit more.

Yet, offering a plug-in car that looks just like a Prius, and drives just like one, comes at a price: namely, that it looks just like a Prius and drives just like one. Many of the early adopters of the Prius wanted one because it felt like a significant leap into a braver and greener automotive future. That domain now belongs to cars without a tailpipe.

To EV drivers—including this one—it’s annoying to hear and feel the gas engine of the Prius Plug-in Hybrid come on so easily. Based on my eight miles in the production version on Friday, it happens anytime your foot applies slightly too much pressure, even if it’s just coming out of a parking lot.

Missing: The Fun Factor

Here’s the bigger point: the pure battery-powered electric car like the Tesla Roadster or even the LEAF has done wonders to erase the wimp factor associated with hybrids, and to open the market to people who like to drive. The quick acceleration off the line in an EV makes all hybrids—including the Prius-with-plug—feel limp. If Toyota earns more customers by offering more than 100 miles of range, then it very well could lose a number of those who want to step on the accelerator as hard as they want and zoom down the road without hesitation.

In the end, the plug-in market will be made up of vehicles with a range of electrification—including small battery plug-in hybrids, those with a range of 40 miles or more, limited range small EVs designed for urban use, expensive large electric vehicles with a range of 200 miles or more, and everything in-between. The arrival of the Prius Plug-in Hybrid at a competitive price—even if sold in low numbers for the first year or two—means more choice for drivers wanting to kick the oil habit. The emerging plug-in market is in desperate need of more choices, and the Prius Plug-in will be a compelling one for many consumers.

Toyota will also sell an “Advanced” Plug-in Hybrid with bonus features such as heads-up display, a nice audio system, and LED headlamps. That one goes for $39,525, minus the tax credit. Bob Carter, group vice president and general manager of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., told me on Friday—in Richmond, Calif. where the pricing was announced—that Toyota expects 70 percent of the expected 15,000 Prius Plug-in Hybrid sold in the first year to be the lower priced version.

Ordering starts in October for sales that will occur in 14 states in 2012. Those states—all of which follow California’s stricter emissions standards—are Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, and of course California. A national rollout is planned for 2013.

About the author

· Brad Berman

Bradley Berman is the editor of PluginCars.com. Brad writes about alternative energy cars for The New York Times, Detroit Free Press, Reuters and other publications. He is quoted in national media outlets, such as CBS News, ABC News, CNBC, CBC, and MarketWatch. Mr. Berman is a tireless researcher of the green car market. He is the transportation editor at Home Power magazine.

Full bio · 939 posts

Comments

· John K. · 35 weeks ago

Look at that top photo: the 1st thing I notice is that behind both the turn signal lens and the clear lens beneath it (back up light?) are stupid old incandescent lights, not LEDs. Ugh! I won't even ask re. the license plate lights (those burning out are a traditional excuse used by cops to pull you over), side marker, and the interior lights.

Isn't the Plugin Prius supposed to showcase Toyota's cutting-edge energy saving technologies? Epic FAIL! ! !

· ex-EV1 driver · 35 weeks ago

@John K.
While I agree that LEDs are more efficient than incandescent, it really makes no real difference in this case since brake and backup lights are so seldom used. Both are probably illuminate less than 1% of the time. If one assumes an incandescent consumes perhaps 30 watts, this would account for 0.3 Watt of the total load - insignificant compared with a continuous load such as the tail lights.
I agree that the license plate and marker lights should probably be LED since they are on maybe 10% of the time.
The wimpy performance is what I don't like. It will continue to make the Prius (and electric cars in general because of the perception) the domain of those who will accept performance compromises in order to get good fuel economy.
At least this Prius isn't a total gas guzzler like its predecessors.

· 54mpg (not verified) · 35 weeks ago

Check the specs and this is a regular Prius where they added a 4.4 KW battery and charging $10, 000 for it. That is $2300 per KWHr of battery. Dear Toyota; this is a rip-off, pure and simple.

· John K. · 35 weeks ago

1) My real gripe re incandescent lights is that they burn out. Within the past year I've had to replace a front turn signal and a rear tail light. Minor inconvenience and since I regularly check their functioning, I noticed them before they caused an accident or a fix-it ticket. Last week I noticed one of my license plate lights had gone out. I popped the tail gate and could not figure out how to remove the molding to access it to replace it. If the owner's manual doesn't explain it, I might have to get a shop manual at a auto parts store. If that doesn't work, I'll have to take it to a dealer and pay few $ for the part (i.e., light), but big $$$ for the labor. Incandescents in this day and age, esp for "high tech" cars, are STUPID! ! !

2) Does the base line regular Prius (~$22k), have equivalent features as the baseline Prius Plug-in ($32k before tax rebate)? That was not clearly stated in the article.

· John K. · 35 weeks ago

Ugh! I hate how you can't go back and edit a post after posting....

I own a '06 Prius.

· Brad Berman · 35 weeks ago

In terms of features, maybe this helps from the Toyota press release:

Prius Plug-in Hybrid will be available in two models, the Prius Plug-in and the Prius Plug-in Advanced. The Prius Plug-in Hybrid model comes equipped with an abundance of standard features including heated front seats, Remote Air Conditioning System (which can run either off the grid while the vehicle is plugged in or off the battery like the third-generation Prius Liftback), a charger timer, EV/ECO/POWER modes, three-door Smart Key, Display Audio with Navigation and Entune1 and an integrated backup camera, LED Daytime Running Lights, 15-inch 10-spoke alloy wheels, enhanced Multi-information Display and much more.

The Prius Plug-in Advanced model adds additional standard features including Premium HDD Navigation with Entune2 and JBL® GreenEdge™, Plug-in Hybrid Applications through a user’s smartphone (Charge Management, Remote Air Conditioning System, Charging Station Map, Vehicle Finder and Eco Dashboard), Head-up Display, Dynamic Radar Cruise Control, Pre-Collision System, LED headlamps with auto on/off feature and integrated fog lamps, SofTex-trimmed seating, an eight-way power adjustable driver’s seat, Safety Connect and more.

The base MSRP for the Prius Plug-in Hybrid is $32,000. The Prius Plug-in Hybrid Advanced will have an MSRP of $39,525. Both Prius Plug-in models are expected to qualify for a federal tax credit of approximately $2,5004.

@John K - Sorry about the lack of ability to edit, but that prevents folks from revising earlier posts already established in a thread--and confusing everyone.

· dutchinchicago · 35 weeks ago

This sounds like the car I wanted in 2006. The HUD is pretty cool and Prius has always been good in the gadgets department.

If I would buy a Prius I would definitely buy this one but I am getting a Leaf.

What I want in 2011 is a leaf with automatic parking and a HUD or even better a 100% electrical Prius with automatic parking and HUD.

· ex-EV1 driver · 35 weeks ago

@54mpg
The problem is that with such small range, they would be severely stressing out a battery with as many cycles as it will likely go through in a lifetime. This is the big challenge of any PHEV or low mileage EV.
While they say you're getting 4.4 kWh of batteries, I'm sure that you're getting a lot more than that if you assumed full capacity. I suspect that the full capacity is more like 8-10 kWh so that price isn't so bad.
Besides, I can't blame Toyota for trying to make a little money.

· Brad Berman · 34 weeks ago

My understanding is that it's 4.4 kWh total, of which a smaller number would be usable.

· 54mpg (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

Thanks ex-EV1 driver and Brad for your comments and clarification. I also think this is 4.4 KW battery, since the tax credit is only $2500. If the battery capacity were 10KW, the tax credit would be much higher.

I was hugely disappointed because Toyota did not increase the electric motor power. The reason for the wimpy electric performance is the 80HP electric motor. With 3 or 4 times the current battery capacity, they could have easily equipped the PHEV with a 120 HP electric motor. Let us hope that they will do that in a few years.

· darelldd · 34 weeks ago

@ John K. - you are CERTAINLY singing my tune! I've been complaining about this for years. Especially in a technology showcase like the Prius, there is no excuse for incandescent lighting. Important signal lights make the most sense - for several reasons:
* They are far more likely to keep working after a collision
* they are far less likely to burn out
* they come to full illumination much faster
(the are also lighter and take up less room)

For interior lighting, it just makes economic sense to use LEDs for the *cost of ownership* calcs. But nobody cars about that. They only care about the sticker price. More and more I'm getting really annoyed with incan and CFL light quality. LED light can be tuned very precisely, and I've grown to depend on it for every task inside and outside the house, as well as in the car!

· kickincanada (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

I would be interested to see if the PIP actually gets 15 miles of range when the temperature drops. Toyota should be saying that it gets 10-15 electric miles depending on temp and driving habits. At least GM and Nissan are more realistic. Bottom line - Leaf and Volt are much better value after the tax credit.

· theflew (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

@ 54mpg

I'm not sure Toyota's design allows such a high output electric motor. That's the difference in the Volt's design. Technically the Volts electric motor could be any size. Toyota's design does allow for higher output ICE to be connected.

· ex-EV1 driver · 34 weeks ago

@Brad,
The capacity of a battery is always up to interpretation. One can generally squeeze more energy into and draw from a battery, there will, of course, be a price to pay in terms of battery life.
With Li-ion, the batteries last the longest if they are about half charged. Whenever you charge or discharge them above or below half, you affect their life. Most of them tend to last 'fairly well' over a range from some point below half to some point above half. If you only want to use the battery once, you can charge it way to the top and discharge it to absolutely empty. The next time, however, it probably won't get nearly that capacity and subsequent charge/discharge cycles will be pretty bad.
The question of battery capacity (kWhrs) is:
Given a certain desired cycle life, how low can I discharge and how high can I charge? The amount of energy (kWhrs) between this discharge and full charge is the capacity.
For any given battery design, there is generally a sweet-spot over which the capacity -vs- cycle life is optimized. For a 15 mile-range PHEV clearly, one needs to focus on the cycle life. For a 200 mile BEV, capacity becomes more important.

· abasile · 34 weeks ago

I think the usable capacity is less than 4.4 kWh. 15 miles divided by 4.4 kWh equals 3.4 miles/kWh, somewhat lousy mileage for an EV when driven efficiently. Averaging 5 miles/kWh in the LEAF isn't too hard if you drive gently. Considering the plug-in Prius forces you to drive gently to stay in EV mode (ugh), you'd probably get between 4 and 5 miles/kWh, implying a usable capacity somewhere between 3.0 and 3.7 kWh.

· Charles (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

If "just coming out of a parking lot" is enough to kick on the ICE, that to me means the PHEV Prius has zero all EV range for all practical purposes. I am not saying it is not a good idea, just that any comparison to the Volt is almost as stupid as Volt versus Leaf comparisons.

I expect the Ford C-Max PHEV will slot in between the Prius PHEV and the Volt. Will it have any real world all EV range? How hard does it have to be to kick in the ICE before you consider the car to have meaningful real world all EV range? Top speed does not matter if the ICE kicks in to get you there.

How about the following:
If the car can do 0-60 in 14.0 seconds and cruse at 70 MPH then it can be said to have real world EV range.

· Kup (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

As a fan of the Prius and a current Volt owner I must say I'm a little confused. Why would someone pay more for an "Advanced" Prius when you can have the base Volt for around $35k? After a potential buyer test drives the Volt and test drives the PiP, I just can't quite understand how someone would plunk the money down for the Advanced PiP.

There are some pro's for the PiP to be sure but the performance of the Volt and the sheer joy of driving a car that essentially functions as an EV should not be underestimated. Are they just counting on previous Prius owners to not even shop the market and see what other plug-ins are out there?

· SageBrush · 34 weeks ago

Other people have posted that it is easy to stay in EV mode (ICE off.) I wonder what mode Brad was in, and the traction battery SOC. I'll assume he did not floor the fuel pedal in a parking lot.

I think of this car as 75 - 85 MPG (not e!) hightly electrified hybrid, for about $3500 more than a similarly equipped HV Prius. By highly electrified, I mean that city driving and gentle highway driving can be with petrol off.

I like it, and I would like it even more if I was not burning coal when I am not burning petrol.

· Max Reid (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

Yes, we need many more plugins.

Read this article. OPEC is going to earn $1 Trillion at our expense.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-19/opec-s-1t-cash-quiets-poor-on-l...

· darelldd · 34 weeks ago

>> There are some pro's for the PiP to be sure

As an EV owner and a Prius owner, I can tell you that vehicle configuration plays a larger role in my life than does the "joy" of driving. If the Volt could fit two bicycles and two people inside the car, we'd have something. If the Volt could fit five people, we'd have something. If the Volt could fit my family of four plus our gear for a week, we'd have something. The fact of the matter is, the Prius is a far more practical vehicle for cargo and people. It is also better suited for those who regularly take long trips.

· Jim McL (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

More plug-in choices is a good thing. Maybe you like this choice, maybe not. The big thing (from my point of view as a Th!nk driver) is that the plug in Prius has good interior room. There is no reason the Leaf could not have a trunk in front, instead of the poorly packaged electronics and lots of wasted space. But Cheers to Nissan too, there is plenty of room for improvement for EVERY brand.

And why not LEDs? COST, stupid! Put them in yourself and see what you have to shell out! This is capitalism here, you ninnies.

;)

· Samie (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

As noted the premium vs. the electric return on the plug-in version will reduce most consumer sales. More of a political appeasing car, public relations tool, and for purchases by governments. This maybe just a stop gap in technology, until Toyota is confident enough to roll out a EV Prius.

· Samie (not verified) · 34 weeks ago

Jim McL

Choice is always good but lets call the Plug-in Prius out. To me at this stage/generation, it is merely poor engineering and less risk taking by Toyota that makes this a weak contender.

As for the LED lights the manufacture always is buying the parts for a lot less than a consumer because of volume and better price leverage form contracts. Once part suppliers scale up on LED lighting (ie becomes the norm on most vehicles), in production, you will see a significant drop in price. That is also capitalism.....

· John K. · 34 weeks ago

Brad B: Thanks for the info.

I think someone will have to figure out how much a regular Prius w/the same features (those not plugin related) will cost in order to decide how much Toyota is charging for the ability to plug in. Only once we know that can each potential PiP buyer figure out if the plugin benefit is worth the cost.

Re. LEDs: I doubt whether the EV Focus will be all LED since it is priced at the low end. I'd guess the Tesla S probably will be. I just get tired of driving behind stinking buses, flat bed trucks, and semis and seeing that they have ALL their taillights LEDs (turn, brake, backup, running lights) and then seeing that the "state of the art" "high tech" LEAF, Volt, and PiP don't. Ugh!

Perhaps the next gen Prius or Ford Fusion hybrid....

· darelldd · 34 weeks ago

> I think someone will have to figure out how much a regular Prius w/the same features (those not plugin related)

Yes, good point. Otherwise it is like saying that the Leaf is nothing more than an electric Versa. Or that the current Prius is nothing more than a hybrid Corolla or whatever low-end car that the goofballs tend to compare the Prius to.

· SageBrush · 34 weeks ago

^^ About $26K, or $3.5k for the plug-in option after tax credit and before TTL and delivery.
Oh, and whatever the state charges for the HOV sticker ;)

· Brad Berman · 34 weeks ago

@Sagebrush - It didn't seem to matter too much what mode I was in--EV, eco, standard, etc. The system is designed to fire up the gas engine with a quick half-way press on the accelerator pedal. I'm not saying that I (or any driver) wouldn't learn how to mostly avoid using the gas engine during the first 12+ miles after a charge. But during my first minutes behind the wheel, it seemed mighty prone to jumping out of EV mode. When it happened the first time, the engine stayed on for at least two or three minutes. The good news is that, after warming up, the car dropped back into EV mode fairly quickly after popping out of it--like after an on-ramp acceleration.

I'm all for overall efficiency, and that's what the Prius Plug-in Hybrid is calculating. It's more a matter of drive "feel." To me, it's a much more enjoyable experience to dart off the line with all-electric torque, and never have the slightest consideration for when the engine is going to clunk on and off.

By the way, I also drove the new 2012 Camry Hybrid on Friday. Wow, that thing is totally seamless in its transitions from gas to electric and back. If more of that mojo was on the Prius Plug-in, maybe I would have minded the engine coming in and out. Then again, Camry has a larger less-efficient engine than the Prius, which works harder and is therefore more obvious.

· SageBrush · 34 weeks ago

"The system is designed to fire up the gas engine with a quick half-way press on the accelerator pedal."
Thanks for that semi-quant Brad. Since the go pedal is about linear with power output and max power is (?) about 100 kw, you are saying that ICE comes on at about 50 kw. That seems perfectly reasonable to me as a design decision for this blended car. Honestly, I was expecting more in the 35 kw range.

· darelldd · 34 weeks ago

I just learned something. I had to look up "semi-quant" - neat term.

· Laurent J. Masson · 34 weeks ago

I wonder how different the Prius plug-in is from the standard Prius if you never plug it. If it drives exactly the same, that 13-mile range on battery looks very expensive. From what I've understood the larger battery allows it to take more power from its motor than the base Prius.

· John K. · 34 weeks ago

Well, I was behind a new Jaguar XJ and all its taillights were LEDs -- couldn't see the license plate lights though and don't know about the interior lights.

Later I was behind a BMW 7 series and it was the same.

Thanks to free market capitalism, high end cars are switching to all LEDs (at least for taillights). So, they'll increase demand for automobile LEDs, which will then motivate producers to ramp up prdxn, which will then increase supply, which will then drive down prices. So, I'm *guessing*, mid end cars will get them at their design remodel, or 2014 model year, whichever is later. Same way things happened w/ABS and then ESC. It pays to be rich....

· Yegor · 34 weeks ago

I have to say that I am very disappointed in price :( -
(MSRP $29,500 after rebate) - Compare it to 2012 Volt $31,645.

Prius has 15 miles range while Volt has 40 miles for only $2,000 more.

Toyota is wasting its 200,000 vehicles tax credit limit.

· Yegor · 34 weeks ago

I think the key to success in Plug-in Hybrid market would be to build a dedicated car - not to use of the shelf cars like Toyota Prius or Chevy Cruze.

It is a new challenge - there is a huge battery if we take Volt's 40 miles range (Prius Plug-in range is too short).

I think that may be the better way to make a 40 miles range plug-in hybrid is to put the battery to the front of the car under the hood - this way:
1. you do not loose a seat
2. It is easily serviceable.
3. You reduce the weight of the car.
4. You remove a reason to worry about high voltage in the salon from potential buyers.
5. You make a car safer (extra "padding" in front).

· darelldd · 34 weeks ago

@Yegor -

I drive a 100-mile EV. The batteries are UNDER the car. This means:
1. I do not lose seats or cargo capacity
2. it is easily serviceable
3. It reduces weight of the car
4. It is not in the cabin
5. The car is safer because the CG is below the axles.

· John K. · 33 weeks ago

Please correct me if I'm wrong....

- Let's use SageBrush's estimated cost of Plug-in of $3.5k
- Let's assume: 12 mi e in real world driving and charging at work, thus 24 mi e per work day.
- Let's assume: 48 mpg HV, so 1/2 gal/workday saved w/PHV. (Ignore non-commute driving for simplicity. Before and after work driving would probably just be additional HV mileage -- no separate charging involved. Weekend driving may or may not be beyond e range and may or may not involve separate charging between each trip.)
- Let's assume: 5 workdays/week x 50 work weeks/yr = 250 workdays/yr (Ignore 2 weeks vacation per year driving for simplicity. Most vacations, I'd assume, involve more than 14 miles driving, so it would approach convention Prius mileage. If not taking a road trip, e miles would be difficult to determine, like weekends above.)
- So, 250 x 1/2 gal/workday saved = 125 gal/yr saved.
- @ $4/gal, $500/yr saved, so 7 yrs to break even; @ $8/gal, it would take 3.5 yrs to break even.
* IIRC, the PiP has *both* the NiMH pack of the standard Prius and the Li ion pack used for plug-in charging. Big Question: When (not whether) will the Li ion (plug-in side) and/or NiMH (HV side) battery packs have to be replaced and their costs?

· darelldd · 33 weeks ago

> - @ $4/gal, $500/yr saved, so 7 yrs to break even; @ $8/gal, it would take 3.5 yrs to break even.

You are assuming that the huge socialized costs of gasoline (and it's use) have no value.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 33 weeks ago

Yes, I'm going strictly by monetary impact for this analysis. Things like confidence you'll be able to get to work, even if there's gasoline rationing or huge spike in the price are also factors which I am ignoring.

Until the bottom line numbers start looking better, we should assume only enthusiasts/"believers" will be taking the plunge.

My guess is that the numbers won't greatly improve until the various Li ion factories ramp up prdxn in '14 and after and NiMH goes off patent in Jan '15. That's why I expect steep reductions in prices.

· darelldd · 33 weeks ago

@ John... I've got you covered on the post mix-up. ;) You still need to log in when you post though!

You know what solves this whole problem of "break even" or "hybrid premium" or whatever you want to call it... is factoring the externalized costs into the price we pay at the pump. At $10/gallon with an under 3-year "break even" think the the car sells itself. But since we hide those external costs, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot, and crapping in our own nest to prove how financially brilliant we are.

· ex-EV1 driver · 33 weeks ago

@John K ,
Freedom isn't free.
If you like being beholden to others for your way of life, it will always be cheaper to pay them and hope they will be benevolent. If you prefer to have a little control over your destiny, you may not be able to take the cheapest route.
With the Prius, you'll always need oil so you'll always have to do whatever is necessary to get oil.
With the PiP, you'll be able to go a little way at a slow speed without oil.
As Plug-in performance improves, you can do more and more without oil.
I always laugh whenever oil prices spike and people start passing internet plans to boycott certain gas stations on certain days. I'm sure the oil companies laugh even harder since they know you'll just have to buy twice as much the next day.
With a plug-in (and PV) I'm the only one laughing.

· darelldd · 33 weeks ago

ex-EV1 -

I'm saving this off for later use!

> If you like being beholden to others for your way of life, it will always be cheaper to pay them and hope they will be benevolent. If you prefer to have a little control over your destiny, you may not be able to take the cheapest route.<

· ex-EV1 driver · 33 weeks ago

Thanks darelldd,
I added that because some may not realize what I meant by "Freedom isn't free".
Have fun with it. It may get a few stubborn conservatives off of their complacent rumps and realize what is really happening to them as they drive their big gas guzzlers.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the hidden subsidies to oil, this angle, however, comes right back at those, like John K who try to hide behind silly, irrelevant first-order numbers.

· darelldd · 33 weeks ago

Indeed. How things are said is often far more important than WHAT is said. And your angle of "pay less and hope" vs "pay more and know" is a strong one. These discussions seem to always distill down to the cost... yet rarely are the real costs actually considered.

If we aren't careful, we'll start being accused of agreeing with each other again. It has happened before, and nothing good can come of that!

@John, feel free to jump back in here. My comments - and those of ex-EV1's I'm sure - fall under the heading of "correct me if I'm wrong." ;)

· John K. · 33 weeks ago

Thanks, Darell. I was tired and started making mistakes. I even made one in my "Anonymous" posting where I meant to write, "That's *when* I expect steep reductions in prices."

Yes, if the true costs to the US for our "crude addiction" were passed along to the consumer, changes (CNG big rigs, mainstreaming of hybrid tech, etc.), would have happened years ago. But that would require massive federal policy and statutory changes, which I don't really see the political will to implement, on either side of the isle.

A big factor for commuters, which I did not factor in, is the state policy of allowing PiPs in HOV lanes. If that saved a commuter 30 min each way, 1 hr/day, and that person was able to earn, let's say, another $50/hr by staying at work longer while still getting back to hearth & home at the same time, that would radically alter the break even point. $50/day x 250 work days/yr = $12.5k! But then again, my little "cocktail napkin" calculation was trying to be strictly economic and not dependent upon gov'tal "privileges." (In which case, I should not have factored in the $2.5k tax credit....)

ex-EV1: I realize what you're saying, but I also realize OPEC is dependent upon US too. If we suddenly stopped using all crude, even just OPEC crude, that would, IMO, put the Middle East into a state of chaos. Their whole economic system relies upon our continued addiction.

Also, we should not ignore that antifreeze, various lubricants, plastics, rubber, etc which are derived from oil are still necessary, most even w/EVs. While EVs w/PVs are the goal, the point at which that is cost effective for most people, I'm guessing, will be in the latter 2010s earliest (barring EEstor coming thru). That's why I'm for CNG hybrids as a bridge tech.

ex-EV1: Don't know the purpose of your insulting last sentence. I'm not "hiding" behind anything. I believe people should know as many implications of their decisions, incl car buying, as possible before committing. Financial ignorance is not bliss. If my calculations are in error, I invited correction. That you have not done. I was merely pointing out to us hybrid tech enthusiasts a possible reason why so few others have gotten on the bandwagon despite the price spikes of the past few years.

I am a member of the nation's oldest civil rights organization (the National Rifle Association, defending our 2nd Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms), and am *much* more of a "community activist" for that cause than this. I am constantly surprised at how many people put the hope for their safety in 9-1-1 and the police arriving in time before something bad happens to them. They don't realize that: (1) bad guys (BGs) don't attack when cops are around, (2) BGs won't let you call 9-1-1, and (3) if you do call 9-1-1, BGs won't wait until the cops show up before attacking you. Most people think violent crime hasn't happened to them in the past and they just "hope" it won't happen to them in the future. They prefer to be "sheep" even though they know there are "wolves" out there. I prefer to be a "sheepdog." 41 states are "Shall Issue" for concealed carry permits and CA will be joining them within the next 2 years via the federal courts. :) To me, the two topics (energy independence and self-defense) are related. As the Boy Scout's motto says, "Be Prepared!"

· ex-EV1 driver · 33 weeks ago

@JohnK,
Sorry about the negative tone to my comment but as an NRA activist, I would think that you of all people would understand that saving a few $$ today isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things.
After all, what's the return on your investment for your gun? Why go out and spend $350 on a Remington 870 when you can just call 911 for free?
Saying that OPEC is dependent on us is kind of like saying the BGs you refer to are dependent on us. I mean, without us, who would they rob?
I think we are a lot aligned on the "Be Prepared" aspect but I'm not sure you're being consistent.
I don't disagree with your numbers, only their importance.
Clearly, one can go out and buy an old used economy car and pay a whole lot less per mile to drive using gasoline than one can or will be able to with a plug-in for the next few decades, even if gas reaches $10/gallon. I can easily make up scenarios where no new technology will ever stand a chance.
The main reason 'so few others' have gotten onto the plug-in bandwagon is that they haven't been available and the incumbents and change-fearers are working as hard as they can to deter people from doing so by spreading mis-information.

· John K. · 33 weeks ago

Let me clarify: With both self-defense and reducing oil usage, I have taken steps, but could take far more. But the cost-benefit ratio gets out of whack for my budget.

Re. self-defense, I am very prudent and follow "the 4-S Rule": avoid Stupid People, going to Stupid places, doing Stupid things, and/or being out at Stupid times, as well as Cooper's Color Code.

Re. reducing dependence upon oil, I switched from a car that avg 19 mpg acc to the EPA to a 2004 Prius (I was mistaken when I wrote it was a 2006 earlier).

While I would like to do more, limited financial resources prevent me.

Something that hinders our side (this applies to breaking our crude addiction as much as to self-defense), is that too many of us look down on people who are on our side, but not as "hard core" as we think they should be. IOW, we should encourage people to "just" switch to a Ford Fusion hybrid from a typical mid-size American sedan. Instead, I see too many posters who get upset at any thing less than pure BEVs/EREVs (e.g., CNG, propane, diesel, hybrids, etc). Suggesting those alternatives is seen as just delaying when we will switch to pure e.

This is analogous to RKBA (right to keep and bear arms) activists who look down on those who choose to carry .380s or .38 J-frames -- they think everyone should carry a hicap 9 or 1911, 2 spare mags, and a backup. I'd rather have 5% of the population carrying former than only 1% of the population carrying the latter.

Similarly here: I previously posted that I'd rather have 100,000 PiPs sold per year in the US than 10,000 Volts + LEAFs. Seems like I'm in good company now:
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/carnegie-mellon-study-says-hybrids-are-be...
Yet some here trash the PiP and plain HVs....

Re. OPEC nations being dependent upon us: they are! A couple of years ago, when our economy 1st went in the tank and oil was ~$35/barrel, those countries (and, IIRC, Venezuela), had to pass emergency measures to alter their governments' budgets since tax revenues dropped so dramatically.

Similarly, this pass week, every day there's been a headline re the price per barrel changing as the market's outlook for our economy, Europe debt crisis, etc. changes daily. It's not like Michael Ruppert, where the price will stay cheap until suddenly there's no more oil and the price shoots thru the roof. OPEC can only charge what the market will bear, assuming they *need* -- and not just want -- to sell their oil.

Re. BGs: they are dependent upon the vast majority of people acting like sheep. If 10% of the law-abiding citizenry carried, BGs would have would either die off or find new careers. As it is, even in most "Shall Issue" states (http://www.nraila.org/maps/rtc.jpg), only about 3% ever apply and get issued permits, and even fewer actually EDC (everyday carry). So while violent crime rates have gone down in those states, it's nothing like they would if 10% of those who could would actually EDC. (For those who think "Shall Issue" concealed carry is radical, every state from the Mississippi River west to the Pacific Ocean is Shall Issue except for CA. They haven't had "shootouts over fender-benders or parking spaces" or "blood running in the streets.")

· Tom Moloughney · 33 weeks ago

Darell: "ex-EV1 - I'm saving this off for later use!" I beat you to it. Just modified it for a FB post. Sometimes something just sounds too good not to reuse!

· ex-EV1 driver · 33 weeks ago

@JohnK,
I agree that hybrids are a step in the right direction but I couldn't care less about their mpg. The only thing that I place I see a gas-only hybrid as helping out is that it is helping to commoditize the electric drivetrain. A Hybrid makes one 100% dependent on oil, just like any other gas car. With the PiP, I'd be ~99.9% dependent on oil because I must drive long distances daily (and won't waste my life at 62 mph), some, who are less dependent on getting places, might be a lot less dependent. With a full-speed PHEV, the dependency decreases proportionately to the amount of battery range (as well as charging speed and locations). In other words, the PiP is only a baby step. I won't waste my money supporting it because I know that the only reason Toyota isn't coming out with a real EV or PHEV is because they want to milk their "golden goose" Prius market a bit more.

@Tom Moloughney,
Sometimes the rocks that spill out of my head really turn out to be gems :-)
Other times, I guess they are just annoying to some - sorry again John K

· John K. · 33 weeks ago

ex-EV1: I think a difference between you & I is that you're looking at your individual dependency upon oil, whereas I'm looking at our country's. IOW, while the PiP would be a waste of money for you in your particular circumstances (other than HOV advantage, if you'd benefit from that), I celebrate it because for *many* others, it will be ideal.

Think of a house-spouse who drops off the kids ~8:00am, comes home and recharges, runs some errands around noon, comes home and recharges, goes out to pick up the kids ~3:00pm, comes home and recharges, then goes out w/the family to a nearby restaurant for dinner, comes home and recharges. There are more "housewives" nowadays, esp in middle income and above levels, than you'd think. Many are professionals who telecommute/work from home. They are the perfect demographic since they're tech savvy and have wealth to spend an extra $3.5 (w/tax break) - 6k (w/o tax break) easily on a car they want vs need, and are often eco concerned (the future for their kids).

"No harm, no foul" re. the perceived insult. It's in the past.

Anyway, back on topic, IMO, CNG hybrids will get us (mostly) off of oil fastest and most efficiently until, my guess, ~2016 when battery tech and BEVs/PHEVs becomes truly competitive w/"normal" cars (despite the shifting of costs of protecting oil prdxn and shipping to the military budget vs consumers).

· EVNow · 33 weeks ago

@John K. "Anyway, back on topic, IMO, CNG hybrids will get us (mostly) off of oil fastest and most efficiently until, my guess, ~2016 when battery tech and BEVs/PHEVs becomes truly competitive w/"normal" cars"

Change to another system of transportation - like CNG - would take about 2 decades, if not more. So going with something that is competitive (with zero sustainability) just in the next 5 years is not a wise move.

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