Nissan LEAF Is the Honda Insight of Electric Cars

By Brad Berman · August 02, 2012

Despite its groundbreaking 70-mpg fuel economy rating, sales of the original Honda Insight hybrid limped along until the car was finally retired in 2006.

Month after month, electric car fans hope that sales of the Nissan LEAF turn a corner, but the disappointing numbers persist. July figures were once again dismal at 395 units. Nobody wants to say the unspeakable word―especially devoted supporters of electric cars―and that word is: flop. A comment from Paul Scott, a prominent EV advocate turned LEAF salesman, keep ringing in my ears. A couple of weeks ago, he told me: “It's frustrating as hell to have gone through those years trying to get the carmakers to build EVs—and then when they do, the public yawns and says, so what?”

I’ve been wondering what the public is yawning at? Is it electric cars as a technology and an automotive category or is it just the Nissan LEAF? Then, it hit me that perhaps the Nissan LEAF is to electric cars what the original Honda Insight is to hybrids—a wonderfully inventive first attempt at something new, but simply not the combination of design and functionality to appeal to anybody except early adopters.

The Honda Insight featured an unmistakable teardrop design. It was cool. (At least, John Travolta called it “the Cadillac of Hybrids,” in the 2005 film, “Be Cool.”) From its introduction in December 1999, the original Honda Insight earned a cult-like following of devoted owners. It was rated, at the time of its release, at a groundbreaking 70 miles per gallon. But the two-door Insight was funky in appearance and impractical in its function. The frumpy first-gen Prius lacked the Insight’s unique appeal but was more practical. Sales of the Insight limped along, until finally Honda put the car into retirement in 2006.

Honda had planned to sell 6,500 Insights each year of production. Total global sales for the first generation Insight were just 17,020 units.

Did that mean the death of hybrids? Not at all. Today, there are nearly 40 hybrids available to U.S. car buyers. The category will continue to grow. Something on the order of 1 in 5 Toyota and Lexus models are hybrids. Toyota continues to hint that hybrid technology will make its way to all its popular models. (Avalon is next.) Ford will soon introduce its first hybrid-specific model, the C-Max, which will also be available with a plug-in option.

I’m not taking a trip down hybrid memory lane just to say that it’s the technology winner. I’m simply saying that the success hybrids have had—though still somewhat modest—was embodied in the Honda Insight, which essentially was a commercial flop.

The rule that emerges: The success or failure of the single first model of a new technology does not condemn the entire technology category to the same fate. Who knows why the LEAF is not selling? Insufficient range? Strange looks? The Nissan brand? The persistent recession? Who knows? I have not heard adequate explanations from Nissan executives about why LEAF sales languish. (Nissan leadership continues to hold firm to its sales targets, which now look beyond reach.)

All signs indicate that there have been problems moving the LEAF off of lots―despite an attractive lease offer and some desperate dealers putting $5,0000 spiffs on the hood.

Honda really never got its hybrid mojo after the Insight. The second-gen four-seat version certainly didn’t create any magic. Maybe Nissan will face the same fate with its future electric cars—or maybe it will turn things around with some design revisions and technological adaptations.

What the electric car movement needs is its own 2004 Toyota Prius. The second generation—which emerged nearly five years after the first Insight went on sale—was less divinely inspired, but somehow it combined all the right attributes (including affordability) and had impeccable timing in the marketplace. Prius is now a powerhouse brand. I don’t know anybody who predicts that for the LEAF. (The Tesla Model S looks like a smash success but Tesla still has a long way to go towards affordability and business success.)

Just like in the movie industry, predicting which new car models will be hits can be a exceedingly difficult. Despite the best market research that can be brought to bear, the recipe for success remains a mystery. But EV fans should not give up hope. Nobody, not even Toyota, expected the second-generation Prius to take off the way it did. Let’s hope its EV equivalent is waiting in the wings.

Comments

· SpiralEV · 45 weeks ago

I think a lot of people are waiting for the 2013 models. They should have more range in cold weather, charge faster and should be cheaper because of the new plant in Tennessee that's coming online. I had been holding out for a 2013 as well, but with the $5k off it looks like I'll be shopping for a 2012 this weekend.

· smithjim1961 (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I think the problem with EV sales is a lack of understanding by the general public. I did some calculations of EV cost of operation compared to the average ICE vehicle using the cost of electricity in my area (St. Louis, Missouri). An EV will save about $2000 per year in fuel. The savings over four years would be enough to purchase 4.5 kiloWatts of solar panels. It would take about 3 kWs to power an EV in my climate. The solar will provide very low carbon fuel for the 25+ year lifespan of the solar panels.

· CharlesF (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

The vast majority of American drivers do not believe that an expensive car with a 73 mile range will work for them.

It is that simple.

Come back when you double the range with a 30% price cut. Then the typical American will consider looking at an EV.

· Evil Attorney · 45 weeks ago

I think the main issue is the economics/value of the situation. Many people rightly perceive that there is a price premium for EVs, yet you lose practical functionality over an ICE car in the form of range and refueling time. Sure, there are other benefits to EVs, but range is a huge issue for some people. I know someone with a Leaf who is thinking about selling it. While it handles the daily commute fine, it doesn't handle the longer weekend trips as well. Until battery capacity and recharge times improve a bit more (or EV prices plunge), I think plugin hybrids are where most growth will be. The steady Volt sales is a good indication of this.

· Benjamin Nead · 45 weeks ago

Interesting perspective on this, Brad. Most compare the launch of the Leaf to that of the Prius. Perhaps it's because they're both 4-doors. But we sometimes forget that the little Insight was the original ground-breaking hybrid and that the original Prius, style-wise, was nothing more than a converted Echo.

Interestingly, I remember reading a magazine article back in the 1990s that compared the little Insight to the GM EV1. Both cars were smallish 2-doors with aerodynamic styling cues, such as rear wheel skirts, and it seemed natural to compare/contrast them. The fact that the EV1 was lease-only was glossed over and author concluded the Honda was a better idea, since it had gasoline backup and greater range (sound familiar?)

Beyond the more conventional form/function aspects of the Prius , I think what got a lot of people excited about its was that - unlike anything Honda was or currently is offering in regards to hybrids - you could/can operate the Prius in a pure electric mode. All Honda hybrids to this day always have the ICE running constantly.

I certainly hope that Nissan doesn't chill to the idea of pure EVs if the Leaf doesn't completely pan out . . . and that we'll see other manufacturers get as involved in selling real EVs at real prices to real people who don't all, by coincidence, happen to only live to the west of the San Andres fault line.

· 54mpg (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I think the US is the last country suitable for an EV. The country is vast (require huge range), Americans are super fat (average guy needs a suburban), the economy is in the toilet (no money to buy an expensive toy) and have a President who wants to push every body into welfare (again no money).

It is a miracle that LEAF is selling 400 cars per month.

· Travisty · 45 weeks ago

Love my Leaf so far. I can easily get 90 miles on a full charge but I rarely go over 50 miles in a day (once this year). In the end I doubt most people know how far they normally drive; I know I didn't until I decided to put my name on the Leaf's waiting list 2 years ago.

There's also the option of renting a car for going long distance which is what I did. Overall I still save on fuel normally and I didn't add those miles to my vehicle so I still win out on cost (rentals are less per day than it cost me to fill up each weak!).

I am excited to see what Gen 2 of the EVs will bring. I'm hoping there will be an option to increase range like Tesla's doing - for those that need it.

· Yegor · 45 weeks ago

54mpg,
:)

· Travisty · 45 weeks ago

@54mpg

Lol slanted much?
We're not going into welfare as much as Faux News would like us to believe. Look at Iceland: much more of a "welfare" country and yet the Leaf is very popular there ;)

Add to that: Iceland has single payer health care and one of the highest life expectancies (higher than the US).

Welfare is completely broken!

Sorry don't mean to take this thread off subject too much.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I'd say it has to do with perceived range anxiety..most .folks think twice (except all of you first adopters), even tho they may not actually need to worry based on their daily driving mileage. Some better styling would certainly help also.
And finally, the bottom line for all EV's and hybrids limits sales. Bring the price down to match similar-sized gas vehicles, and they'll sell.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I think the car that the EV movement needs is clearly the Chevrolet VOLT. Volt sales are doing very well, outselling all other plug-in vehichles COBMINED. And unlike the LEAF, Prius Plug In and others, VOLT sales are increasing month over month, not decreasing. Go VOLT!

· Yegor · 45 weeks ago

I think it is not right to call LEAF a flop.

Pure EVs is a very radical auto technology. Average Joe is too lazy to take some time to read about this. Add a very limited range, long charge time and you scared away most of the customers. It is all in the range.

It will many years for the pure EV idea to advance to the mainstream customers.
Here is my three step cure to jump start EV sales:
1. Step one: get a car with 100 miles all weather range at $27,000. With 50-70 miles range even early adopters are turned away because the range is very limiting. When you get 100 miles range the sales would jump to 2,000 per month.
2. Step two: get 150 miles all weather range at $27,000. The sales would jump to 10,000 per month.
3. Step three: get quick charge network across US at every 100 miles. The sales would jump to 20,000 per month.

It is all in the range.

· jimmy p (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I do not understand why range is such a big deal, if you are a two car family (high percentage are). We have a ICE car for longer trips and the Leaf for all other trips (2 kids one 9 the other 15). So far after 8 months the Leaf travels about 1400 miles/month, while the ICE averages 900 miles. That makes the Leaf our primary vehicle!!! People just do not realize how many miles the average household uses for typical short trips around town. We had a smart meter installed by our electric company and pay an hourly rate (very low at night when charging). Our typical savings from not buying gas is over $200 a month. In addition our family loves the way the car looks and drives and after our loan is paid off in five years we will have saved over $12000 on gas which brings the cost of the vehicle way below any ICE vehicle!

· Yegor · 45 weeks ago

jimmy p,
In my opinion an average Joe would not even go into these details after hearing about 50-70 miles range.

· Spec (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

Yeah, the situation is simple. EVs are asking people to pay a significant price premium (even after the tax-credit) for a vehicle with a limited range and a long recharge time. Now if gasoline cost $6/gallon, people might accept those drawbacks in exchange for the cheap electricity-powered miles. But with gasoline at $3.50/gallon or less . . . people will stick with gas cars having long ranges and fast refuel times.

It is that simple. The only people willing to put up with electrics right now are gadget-freaks, national security mavens, tree-huggers, and peak-oil doomsters. Everyone else will buy the cheaper & more convenient gas car.

The only things that will change the situation is making the EVs cheaper and gasoline becoming more expensive.

· Warren (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

Interesting comparison. The first generation Insight is the only car that I have been interested in for decades. I so wished I had bought one. When the talk of new EV's started I thought,"Now is my chance. Someone will have to make a super aero, small, two seater, because batteries are so incredible inefficient. Something like the old Insight, or the EV1." Instead we got a family hatchback, with more battery, less range, and no sex appeal.

· Richard Camp (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

In addition to range anxiety, I believe the questions about battery degradation are causing customers into a "wait and see" mode. Until Nissan solves this question and/or offers a full battery warranty to give customers confidence, sales numbers will be reduced.

I also believe releasing news on the 2013 model improvements didn't help 2012 sales. The improved heater and increased level of charging are both improvements worth waiting for, in my humble opinion.

I hope that Nissan surprises us with improved range, cosmetic improvements and a warranted battery for 2013.

· John K. · 45 weeks ago

Some things are destined/designed to fail....

How much of the auto market is selling 2-door 2-seaters? Small fraction.
Of that, how much is selling econo cars that aren't practical for most people? A small fraction of a small fraction.

The Insight looked great, but, IIRC, as the Car & Driver reviewer of it said, it couldn't be a riding mower in a drag race. He also said re. its handling that it was one of the extremely rare cars that can oversteer and understeer at the same time and rhetorically asked if that was balanced handling. LOL!

If Honda had made it somewhat sporty, like the old CRX, or even the CRX HF, the could have sold a lot of them. But it wasn't sporty at all.... ("Strike one!")

Honda then releases the Accord hybrid saying the hybrid was more of an electric supercharger than an economy enhancement. So, what how Honda package this sporty Accord hybrid? You guessed it -- in the 4-door, not the 2-door Accord, and only with an automatic transmission! ("Strike two!")

The revised Insight... "Strike three! You're out!"

Fortunately, the little CR-Z is selling reasonably. If they'd increase the motor for more torque (which Honda engines have always been short on), gave the engine a good exhaust sound, and gave it more sporty handling, it could be positioned as a socially responsible, green sporty alternative to the Miata (which has set all sorts of sales records). Honda just needs to push the CR-Z a little more towards the sports car segment and a lot of young men and women and young couples would fall for it. It would be what the Insight could have been, rather than what it was -- an industrial pilot/science project that only hyper-miling nerds coveted....

· NeilBlanchard · 45 weeks ago

If the Leaf had the Cd of the EV1, then it's range could be close to 200 miles. If the Leaf had the Cd of the Insight, it's range could be ~150 miles.

The Leaf needs to both have a lower Cd and look better -- which for me is the same thing; more or less. Then it would have significantly more range, so two birds with one stone!

Driving the Leaf instead of the typical car sold in this country saves ~$17,000 per 100K miles driven. And that is at today's gas prices. *That's* the one major factor that you didn't mention, and I think it is an important one.

"That Leaf must be pretty good on gas?"

"Must be -- I never have to put any gas in it!"

"Oh, I didn't know that Nissan sold a diesel?"

Neil

· dutchinchicago · 45 weeks ago

I agree that the Volt is the EV we have been waiting for. It is a gentle introduction to EVs without any of the typical EV angsts.

I can see the electrical range of the Volt increasing with each model and people will become more confident about EVs. At some point they will realize that the are not using the ICE and their next car or second car could be a pure EV.

· Bluegreen (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

In my opinion, the Leaf isn't selling largely because it's ugly. Those bulging bug eyed front lights are a turn off. Admit it. If the Leaf had sex appeal it would sell. Imagine a tesla styled BEV at Leaf pricing. People would overlook range if the car caught their eye and the eyes of others.

So my advice to Nissan. Make the Leaf attractive and fun to drive or the Leaf is compost.

· chasjacks · 45 weeks ago

Neil,

I've also learned that patience and leaving a little earlier for my 43-mile OC/LA CA one-way commute goes a long way toward range. I can get there with 6 bars remaining and fully charge in 8.5 hours using a standard 120v plug if I keep it a about 60 on the freeway (and follow a truck whenever possible). A few miles in the carpool lane, especially when other traffic is stopped, makes it even sweeter. The $2000 yearly fuel savings is real. It was well under $30K after federal tax credit and state rebate. What are thinking people waiting for?

· EVlvr (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

The original Honda Insight was a niche model - a not very family friendly 2 door coupe. The original Prius had a more mainstream appeal in terms of utility but was not very pretty; it took the fabulous 2nd generation styling redesign for it to become appealing to families who wanted to proudly make a statement with their family car.

The Leaf has that family utility, but has far greater demands upon its owners to change their driving habits than any Prius ever had. In fact, the Prius gave more in gas savings without taking anything away in range or useability as does the Leaf.

Because they require owners adapt to their constraints, pure EVs of today do not have mass appeal and won't until battery technology improves to the point where range and recharging time become acceptable.

Until then, extended range EVs like the Volt will have to carry the load.

· Al Blunt (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I have my anxieties about my 76 miles round trip commute with my leaf; however I consider the car a success . The problems I see are as follows
1. The range isn't a constant, it varies all the time, even the charge-up.
2. Most people don't want to inconvience themselves charging the car, despite the fact that the charging info structure is already abundantly increasing daily. Most are still free, and some only charge about $2.50/3.00 per hour which is still way less than gas. But since gas prices went down most people in this country aren't very smart they're lulu-byed too sleep like sheep,but now they're on the rise.
3. Seemingly Nissan themselves don't seem to be interested in knowing anything more about their own product. Just call either ( A. Nissan help, B. your local dealers tech dept. C. The sells person you purchased the vehicle from.). And notice how no one has any answers for you, other then what you already know from a site such as this one.
Too bad! Oh well I'll put in the work

· Yegor · 45 weeks ago

@chasjacks,
That is exactly why very few people buy Nissan LEAF. What you just described scares them away.
When the gas will be $6 per gallon they might start to think about LEAF.

· Smithjim1961 (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

The 1st gen Insight was in production 7 years and sold 17,000 units worldwide. The Nissan Leaf has been in production less than two years and has sold 32,000 worldwide. (in tough economic times) The Volt has also been in production less than two years and has sold 20,000+. Perhaps the slow sales of the Leaf in the U.S. is still due to limited supply???

I hope Nissan is working on a solution to battery capacity loss issues as aggressively as GM worked on a solution for the side impact problem.

· Objective (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

Oh, ah, in reference to Al Blunt's assertion that a charging station fee of $2.50 to $3.00 per hour is still way less than gas, that's not true, and overblown claims hurt the credibility of other folks whose opinions you are trying to support.

I mean, check your math. Other than the few rapid charge stations which likely cost significantly more, publicly available pay to charge stations are 6.6 kW (level 2, right?)

So paying $2.50 an hour is how much per kWhr: $2.50 / 6.6 kWhr = $0.3787878... (repeating pair of digits 78.) So, almost 38 cents per kWhr.

The EPA accepted equivalency for comparing electrical energy to gasoline energy is 33.7 kWhr per gallon of gas. This is the conversion factor that results in those MPGe ratings of typically 95 to 118 MPGe. In other words then, around 100 miles per 33.7 kWhrs.

Well then, that's: $0.378 * 33.7 kWhr/gal = $12.765151... per gallon equivalent electricity (repeating pair of digits 51.)

Finally then that would mean an EV getting even as much as 118 MPGe comes to a per mile fuel cost of: $12.76 per gallonelectric / 118 MPGe = $0.108 per mile.

That is no cheaper than a reasonable 4 door 5 seat mid size family sedan such as Malibu, Camry, Accord, Nissan Altima, etc using gasoline in the range of $3.25 to $4.00 per gallon.

So, Al, I strongly advise the avoidance of grossly inaccurate assertions, as they diminish the very case you are trying to advance.

If you want to dispute any of what I have just asserted, feel free, but don't attack me personally. I am just the messenger bringing up a factually supported correction in this forum.

In my posts I have made every effort clearly lay out the case assumptions and reasoning for the conclusions I arrive at, and to live up to the screen name under which I post: Objective.

· ex-EV1 driver · 45 weeks ago

@Objective,
Charging a fee of $2/hr for 6.6 kW Level 2 EV charging for an EV that gets perhaps 3.5 mi/kWhr costs 2 / 3.5 / 3.3 = 0.09 $/mi. At $4/gal for gas, a 30 mpg automobile costs 4 / 30 = 0.13 $/mi. The EV is definitely cheaper.
However, This only works for EVs that can charge at 6.6 kW. Since the Leaf only charges at 3.3 kW, the price per mile is twice that for EVs that can charge at 6.6 kW if the charging station charges by the hour.
As you see it all depends on the assumptions.

· Jeanne (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

It's all about infrastructure and range anxiety. I was pre-registered to get a Prius Plugin until I found out Oregon's and Washington's plans for quick chargers along major highways. Then I thought "What the heck, I can limp along for a few months while they're getting in place and not have to maintain a combustion engine long term." In Portland we have great infrastructure now (Yay for Electric Avenue) and I'm seeing other Leafs everywhere. I can drive to the Canadian border with quick chargers or the California border with one Level 2 stop in Salem and my choice of quick chargers the rest of the way. Love my Leaf.

· Objective (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

More to the point, ex-EV1, it depends on if the assumptions are accurate and objective enough to pass peer review, doesn't it?

How objective is it to compare one of the highest mileage 2 seat EV's on the market, a two seat car rated 18 mpgE, to a representative 30 mpg car? A fair comparison to the Mitsubishi i would be something like the Honda CR-Z, rated 35 mpg city, 39 mpg highway.

My conclusion was that based on charging for a cost of the range offered by Mr Al Blunt, and even choosing the low end of the range he offered, picking a high mileage 2 seat EV, and generously assuming that the per hour charging cost was for the level 2 rate of 6.6 kW, the energy cost per mile EV would come to $0.108 per mile. That is the same as the average fuel cost I have experienced for my Camry in 4.5 years of ownership, 96,000 miles. My Camry is EPA rated at 26 city, 31 highway, but I generally get actual mileage from 33 to 36 mpg. If I drove a Honda CR-Z, I would expect to regularly get over 40 mpg.

What I will not do though, is grossly slant the assumptions and/or fudge the math in favor of one side over the other. I didn't even round 10.8 cents up to 11 cents for EV energy cost per mile, but you did round 12.5 cents up to 13 cents for gasoline energy cost per mile.

Don't hurt your argument with ANY falseness. You will gain true converts only with honest, objective arguments.

· ex-EV1 driver · 45 weeks ago

@Objective,
We clearly agree about the assumptions but I disagree that whether and how much one rounds a fractional cent is irrelevant and unnecessarily argumentative. At less than 10% rounding error can hardly be labeled "grossly" slanting and/or fudging. There is no falseness in either your, Al Blunts, or my computations, only differing assumptions.
We definitely see that there is a lot of variability between costs of driving and EV depending on the cost of charging (much greater than 10% variability). The comparison with ICE varies a lot more than 10% depending on what ICE you compare with. The costs also can vary by greater than 10% depending on how you assume you are driving (speeds, A/C, stop/go traffic, mountains, etc).
Let's not get lost in arguing the insignificant details.

· Bill Howland (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

On the Nissan Leaf web site there is a video of an average looking guy doing an old-fashioned (and my favorite style) 'Hard Sell' style of advertising, i.e. mentioning one by one all of the Leaf's desirable advantages. Although I don't own one, I've test driven one and it appears to be a very solid product. American sales are currently down, but world wide, sales are pretty good. Carlos Ghosn, to his, and his company's credit, has made a considerable investment in this, to be fair, must still be admitted is a game-changing vehicle. I admire his fortitude to invest huge sums on a roll of the dice. If gas prices go up world wide, he should be wildly successful.

· Bill Middlecamp (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

I'm quite happy with my Nissan Leaf. We are a two-car family, the other being gas, and we take whichever car meets our needs for a particular trip. Turns out that it's the Leaf an overwhelming majority of the time. We use the 80% charge option, mostly, to maximize battery life, charge only at night because we get an awesome rate, and the range is sufficient. But, I know that the range needs to be about twice as far for some people to feel comfortable that they won't get stranded.

A neighbor has had a Honda Insight for years. The car is very stiff and has an uncomfortable ride, and it's obvious from one look that it has little carrying capacity. The Leaf has lots of passenger and cargo capacity, and is like riding in a bedroom slipper. I'm 6'4", and I fit very comfortably with lots of head room, even in the back seat. The cargo rating is around 900 lbs. The Volt is not as roomy for me in the front seat, the back is useless if I'm in the front, and the cargo rating is around 550 lbs. So, I think the better comparison is that the Volt is more like the Insight, and the Leaf is like the Prius, in terms of practicality.

The Volt is an amazing car with lots of technology--maybe too much. I like the simplicity of the Leaf drive system. Nissan is going to have a much easier time getting the price down to mass-market levels. The NY Times did a break-even analysis of electric vs. gas. They say the Leaf gets there in about nine years, but the Volt takes nearly 27 years.

I don't know why the Leaf sales are where they're at, but I don't think Nissan cares, or they would be cutting the price. When the 2013 models built in Tennessee are available, I think we'll see Nissan cutting the price. I've heard they are losing money on each sale because of the exchange rate between the Yen and the Dollar.

I bought this car because I believe that EVs are the way of the future. They are on their way to becoming the most economical mode of personal transport, they are good for the US economy in several ways, they are a little better for the environment, they're fun, and I just want to be on the cutting edge this time around!

· Bill Middlecamp (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

By the way, I am paying just slightly over $.01/mile for electricity to operate my Leaf. That's taking the off-peak-rate dedicated-meter reading, multiplying by the rate including taxes, and dividing by actual miles driven. Gas costs about $3.60 in my neighborhood right now. I can drive 330 miles for that much money. I have driven 2,000 miles so far. No assumptions necessary for these calculations.

· Objective (not verified) · 45 weeks ago

Bill, that's great. Unfortunately though, many, if not most heavily populated regions in America pay from 14 to 20 cents per kWh residential rate with no off-peak pricing policy. My rate is 17 cents per kWh. No assumptions there either.

Another fact is that the 24-7 baseload electricity auctions in at least one high population state wholly located in the PJM grid, have bottomed out around $45 per MWhr (4.5 cents per kWh.) That's the wholesale price. It would take a defacto subsidy to sell distributed electricity for less than the locally going rate of 17 cents, as the distribution costs are far more than for generation.

I'm happy that it is working out for you though. I've never been averse to the concept of electric cars. I just don't see any of them as practical for me based on the significantly higher overall cost compared to what I drive now, and the less than adequate performance in range and refueling delays for my driving needs. Further, I believe the vast majority of americans come to the same conclusion.

· Objective (not verified) · 44 weeks ago

Yesterday KYW News Radio 1060 AM reported on two new charging stations installed at Temple University's campus in Philadelphia. You can also read about it at: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/08/08/temple-univ-gets-charging-st...

It looks like the reporter doing the story, Pat Loeb, published at least one error: "the Volt can go 350 miles on a single charge." According to the radio story, the usage fee is $3.50 per hour. The printed story says $7.50 per hour, or $52 per day. I don't know for certain which is correct, but my guess is that the printed story got it wrong on the per hour cost, especially since the daily rate comes to just under $2.17 per hour.

· igh (not verified) · 44 weeks ago

Miata Nissan of Sacramento is now discounting LEAFs by $10000 from MSRP. This is before any state or federal rebates. After adding CA and Federal rebate it becomes 18000
for the LEAF SL. This is a steal.

· chasjacks · 44 weeks ago

igh,
I contacted Maita Nissan and confirmed that the offer is actually a $2500 discount plus the $7500 federal tax rebate. Buying or leasing would also qualify for the $2500 California credit subject to funds remaining (currently about $1.3 million).

· chasjacks · 44 weeks ago

Correction, tax credit, not rebate

· chasjacks · 44 weeks ago

and correction, California rebate, not credit

· igh (not verified) · 44 weeks ago

Ahh the tricks that they play! Anyway 5000 off MSRP is doable now. With 2012 inventory clearance and 600-700 LEAFs in dealer lots in CA alone I expect more discounts. However the CA EV rebate is depleting at an alarming rate. I may not last one more month.

· Max Reid (not verified) · 44 weeks ago

Insight was just meant to show that the Hybrid technology works, thats all.
But Leaf was meant to be a mass produced family car. Ever since Nissan raised the price of Leaf from 33,000 to 35,000 the sales have started going down.

May be they bring down the cost of US Produced Leaf by 2-3 K. Otherwise people with budget in that range will simply go for Prius and C-MAX Plugins. When Tesla can bag a 12,000 unit order, Nissan can certainly do something with Leaf.

· gasface49 (not verified) · 43 weeks ago

...I have a gas power car. A 2000 Metro 3 cyl. With air conditioner on it still delivers 40 mpg at highway speeds. As for the 2005 Honda Insight with the gas miles rated at 70, America didn't look to above average mileage 7 or 12 years ago. It's a shame because of all that, come have never happened with high gas prices. I say, good show, Nissan Leaf, and other 'no-gas' cars, and the Hybrid vehicles. America, stop sticking your head in the sand...

· Dexter Hertenstein (not verified) · 43 weeks ago

Im a roofer who is opening a solar company. Enphase system are the best way to go. For people who are looking to get solar please make sure that your roof will out last you system. Other wise you will have to pay someone to take it off, install new roof and then reinstall the system. Dexter Hertenstein

· igh (not verified) · 43 weeks ago

The CA EV rebate was refunded to the order of 17M. It now shows 18M available up from 1M last week. Now I can breathe a little easy as I wait for my Focus Electric to arrive. Ford seems to be in no hurry to deliver these vehicles. I could get the Leaf SL for 3K lesser than the Focus now but decided that the Focus was the better buy.

· brg2290 · 43 weeks ago

igh, where in CA are you? And have you searched cars dot com for a Focus EV? Base model in stock in Fairfield CA. for $ 36,825, and two in Morgan Hill for $38551.

· igh (not verified) · 43 weeks ago

I am in the Bay area. I have talked with Fairfield Ford to get that car. They say they have it in stock but actually they don't. It was supposed to arrive on 6th this month but still has not arrived. On top of that they said the price was a mistake - it is actually below invoice but they could do invoice. The Morgan Hill ones have leather which I do not want - also no white/black/platinum/blue.

· brg2290 · 42 weeks ago

@igh -
Well, that's disappointing. If the price is a "mistake", Fairfield Ford should correct the listing error, rather than continue to perpetuate confusion.

Good luck in your pursuit of an FFE.

· Bret (not verified) · 42 weeks ago

The probems with the Leaf are obvious: Cost, Range and Ugliness. These can easily be overcome by Nissan and they are already working on it. If they make big strides with the 2013 model, sales may take off again. If not, it may become the next Insight.

The real magic bullet for all EVs is the Envia battery. If Envia and Steven Chu are correct and 200-300 mile EVs become available for $20-25K, EV sales should take off for all manufacturers. I also see a big future for EREV cross-overs, SUVs and minivans, as long as the prices are reasonable. The C-Max is a prime example, although I wish it had more electric range.

· igh (not verified) · 41 weeks ago

Finally got mine from Harrold Ford, Sacramento. They had the only car within a 125 mile radius that matched all my specs - Silver/Frosted Glass and non leather and they gave it to me for invoice. So I drove 2.5 hrs from the South Bay with my wife in her Volt to get it. Driving it back was challenging. Found a Chargepoint half way down at Martinez. Drove into the station with 4 miles remaining (whew!). There it charged for 3 hours while I surfed the web in a Starbucks. Finally drove it home around 8pm. Got 74 miles range first time with 65mph cruise and fan only. Got 78 miles in the second leg. Gas free finally in day to day living - feels good to be free from the shackles of the gas companies and OPEC. It had been a long wait.

· ex-EV1 driver · 41 weeks ago

@igh,
Welcome to the oil-free world!

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