well, this have answered my curiosity... actuallyboth of them are cool.. btw, you might like to read other teviews on 2012 Car Reviews Line
Nissan and Ford Respond to Chevy Volt Fire Issue
The design of the Nissan LEAF battery pack could reduce driving range during extreme temperatures, but might make it safer than batteries using liquid coolant.
A year ago, PluginCars.com contributor Tom Molougney wondered if Nissan made the right call to not use an active thermal management system—which could be the key to maintaining expected driving range in extreme temperatures. At the time, Nissan said, "We are confident the LEAF will perform well in all ambient temperatures."
New light is cast on that question, now that the Chevy Volt’s liquid coolant has been identified as a possible cause of fires that might occur weeks after a severe accident. The response from Nissan—which doesn’t use liquid cooling in the LEAF—has been to distance itself from the issue. For Ford, which does utilize liquid thermal management in its upcoming Focus Electric, the response is to reassure the public about its safety.
Nissan's U.S. product safety director, Bob Yakushi, last week told Edmunds' AutoObserver that circumstances that appear to have led to post-crash Chevy Volt fires simply don't exist in the Nissan LEAF. Yakushi points out that the LEAF's 24-kWh lithium-ion battery pack is encased in a damage-resistant steel enclosure and surrounded by a crash-safety structure that's located inside of the electric hatchback's overall crash-safety protection zone. "It's a three-layer system," said Yakushi.
Rather than employing an active thermal control system, Nissan relies on the existing airflow—sometimes referred to as “passive air cooling”—to regulate the temperature of the LEAF's battery pack. Therefore, the LEAF doesn't have any internal cooling lines that could break and potentially leak fluid after a severe accident. Without fluid, it's unlikely that the LEAF's battery pack would produce a fire after being damaged, according to Yakushi.
Maintaining Focus
Ford will launch its Focus Electric in the coming weeks despite the current fire safety investigation of the Chevy Volt.
Meanwhile, the Ford Focus Electric will launch in "limited numbers" in the coming weeks in New York, New Jersey and California. Like the Chevy Volt, the Focus Electric uses a liquid-based thermal management system—but the Volt fire incident will not delay Ford's rollout plan for the Focus Electric. The automaker said, "We still have limited information about the cause of the Volt fires in the government crash tests, so it is difficult to comment on how they relate to Ford’s electrification program. [We will continue] to work with the NHTSA as we prepare to launch our electrified vehicles over the next year.”
Ford claims that it continues to develop and test its electrified vehicles to ensure that it adheres to all safety requirements. The automaker also launched an initiative to educate responders and “secondary handlers” on dealing with crashed electrified vehicles.
While Ford and Nissan are figuring out how to respond to the controversy, the Wall Street Journal is casting some doubt on GM’s explanation that the coolant leak is the problem behind the three fires in crashed Chevy Volt cars. According to WSJ, “the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration isn't sure that explanation is correct, people familiar with the agency's thinking said.” Furthermore, the newspaper reported that it could take 90 days or longer to complete its investigation—which could leave the issue in limbo as the Focus Electric is launched and Nissan expands availability of the all-electric LEAF during its second year on the market.
Comments
· CelticSolar (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
"the three fires in crashed Chevy Volt cars"
I thought there was one crashed Volt and two garage fires. Were there 3 crash fires?
· VictorD (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
Actually, the garage fires didn't start because of the car. Being lost in a fire is different than "catching" on fire. The 1st crash test was the one that caught fire three weeks later (battery not discharged). The other two were tests done directly to the battery out of a car to recreate the problem.
The IIHS tests didn't result in fire. IIHS also discharged the battery according to protocol. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/12/insurance-i...
· Evil_Attorney (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
Wait, I thought Nissan switched over to a thermal management system for 2012 Leafs.
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-announces-improvements-2012-2013-l...
· indyflick · 22 weeks ago
@Evil_Attorney (not verified), "Wait, I thought Nissan switched over to a thermal management system for 2012 Leafs." The LEAF pack now includes a resistance heater for very cold weather situations, it's not a liquid active thermal management system like the Volt, Tesla, and Focus EV use.
· Londo Bell (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
@ Evil_Attorney,
It's a battery warmer. Not a liquid type thermal management system like the Volt, if that's what you're implying. Read this to learn more:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/06/2012-nissan-leaf-battery-warm...
In short - use the battery power to warm up the battery, pretty much to compensate the loss of battery power (naturally) due to cold temp.
· theflew · 22 weeks ago
@Londo Bell,
We'll have to see how well this works in real world. A 300 watt heater isn't going to do much when you car has been sitting a whole day at work in sub freezing temperatures. Also since it only comes on at low temperatures (< 14 F) it will be interesting to see what the range would be reduced to before then.
· dgpcolorado · 22 weeks ago
@Londo Bell, "In short - use the battery power to warm up the battery, pretty much to compensate the loss of battery power (naturally) due to cold temp."
The purpose of the LEAF battery warmer is not to increase range in cold weather but to keep the battery from from freezing in extreme cold weather. The battery warmer can run while the car is plugged in and the LEAF manual recommends leaving the car plugged in when stored in temperatures below -4 degrees F so as to not deplete the battery. The battery heater won't work below 30% SOC.
A cold LEAF battery will have reduced capacity and reduced ability to accept power during charging, including regenerative braking. However, using the battery warms it up and it has considerable thermal mass so it takes awhile to cool off after use. Nevertheless, reduced range in cold weather is a fact of life, even for thermally managed battery packs, due to cold air (higher density, increased drag), cold tires (increased rolling resistance), and wet, snowy, or icy roads (reduced traction efficiency).
The big hit to cold weather range for the LEAF is the use of the heater, which is why the cold weather versions have heated seats, steering wheel, and mirrors. The idea is that one can pre-heat the car while plugged in and then not have to use the cabin heater much to stay comfortable. But reduced range in cold weather is a fact of life.
· abasile · 22 weeks ago
The battery heater in the 2012 LEAF is not there to improve range in cold weather. Its only real purpose is to keep the battery pack from freezing in bitter cold temperatures, i.e., -13°F, which the majority of us rarely if ever see. It is a fact that all battery-powered cars have less range in cold temperatures. That is even true of the Volt, even with its more sophisticated thermal management.
That said, while our LEAF has had less range in 20°F to 30°F temperatures (we park outside), the drop-off has not been dramatic, maybe something like 20% less than summer. If we need to use climate control, then the range reduction is greater.
Handling on snowy/icy surfaces is decent, especially with the superior weight distribution owing to the battery pack. I did install snow chains once, when I needed to drive up a hill on an unplowed street. All in all, the LEAF is a capable winter car, provided the reduced range is not an issue.
· abasile · 22 weeks ago
@dgp: You beat me to it! :-)
· Brian Schwerdt · 22 weeks ago
@dpgcolorado - "due to cold air (higher density, increased drag)"
I have seen this tossed around a lot. I'm no aeronautical engineer, but this doesn't seem to be such a big factor to me. Could you point me to an analysis that provides numbers? E.g. What percentage increase in energy does it take to move a car 60mph at 20F versus 70F?
· dgpcolorado · 22 weeks ago
@Brian Schwerdt,
First, let me say that I am a former sailplane and airplane pilot and learning about air density is, not surprisingly, critical to pilots. Cold dry air is the most dense and warm humid air is the least dense. At the old airport in Denver a fully loaded 747 couldn't take off on hot summer days because the air was not dense enough to provide enough lift over the length of the runway/takeoff run.
With regard to cars, I became aware of air density when I moved to high altitude in Colorado and found that my gas mileage was much better than at sea level, due primarily to reduced air density.
That said, the numbers for the reduction in air density versus temperature can be found in many places with a search, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-does-air-density-vary-temperature-5677324.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
As you can see from those references, air density is inversely proportional to temperature. For example, at 35ºC and 1 atm the air density is 1.1455 kg/m³, at 20ºC the density is 1.2041 kg/m³, at 0ºC the density is 1.2920 kg/m³, at -5ºC the density is 1.3163 kg/m³, and so forth. Note that there is a linear relationship between density and temperature. The power required to overcome drag is also a linear function:
P[drag] = F[drag] v = ½ ρv³AC[drag]
where:
P = power
F = force
v = velocity
ρ = density
A = reference area
C[drag] = coefficient of drag
Note that power to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to the air density.
· dgpcolorado · 22 weeks ago
"What percentage increase in energy does it take to move a car 60mph at 20F versus 70F?"
I'm not going to figure precise numbers for 70ºF and 20ºF but using the numbers I gave above it appears to be about a 10% difference in energy since there is a 9.3% density difference between air at 20ºC (68ºF) and -5ºC (23ºF). That might be a bit of an underestimate since cold air tends to be drier (more dense) than warm air.
· HotinPHX (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
Proud owner of a 2012 Chevy Volt and personally not worried about battery fires due to coolant lines. The IIHS actually did a service by not following discharge protocol on the Volt after a crash in a safe, controlled environment. It shows body shops and collision centers what NOT to forget when storing ANY type of electric vehicle. There will be Volt fires, and Leaf fires, and Focus EV fires; it's just inevitable, but this incident helped to save many other EVs from similar mishaps. For those people that believe that a liquid cooling system is not necessary, like in the LEAF, please think twice. I drove a LEAF for 3 weeks until I decided I would never buy one. It has nothing to do with body styling and cheap interior appointments either. In the LEAF manual it warns: Never permit the LEAF to stay in ambient temperatures of 120 F for more than 24 Hrs or else severe battery damage will occur. Great ! So much for a passive air cooling system when the car is in my garage (not moving) during the summer! My garage in Phoenix approaches 140 F for about 3 months of the year; and even gets up to 125 F during the night. With my VOLT, as long as the car is plugged in during the night or when I'm gone on vacation, the liquid cooling system will keep the car's battery system comfortably cool. It's not just in Phoenix either. The majority of the country will have trouble keeping a cool garage just to make up for the short comings of the LEAF's technology. I believe that the VOLT was better thought out and engineered.
· alt-e · 22 weeks ago
@ HontinPHX - a liquid cooling system cannot cool something lower than the temperature at which it dumps the heat, such as the radiator. The only way your Volt could cool your battery pack to lower than the outside temperature is if the A/C system turned on in order to chill the liquid cooling. But the same thing could be done with an air cooled battery pack by having the A/C system chill the air prior to it going into the pack.
The big benefit of a liquid cooling system vs an air one is the rate at which cooling can happen. In other words, the rate at which heat energy can be removed from the pack. But liquid cooling by itself cannot get you down to a lower temperature.
· Londo Bell (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
@ alt-e,
I was gonna say something similar to the Volt fan who tried to "bash" the LEAF, but seeing that he just bought his Volt, and wasted $41K plus on it, I couldn't think of a better punishment for his ignorant (or some call it stupidity) than anything else...
I mean, seriously, wouldn't Nissan have thought about it, when it
(1) has a testing facility in Arizona,
(2) warrants its battery for 8 ys nationwide, and
(3) sells the LEAF in Arizona?
The short-coming is not with the LEAF, but with Volt. That's why all the reports are focused on the Volt, as there is currently NO LEAF fire, or Focus EV fire.
· alt-e · 22 weeks ago
@ HotinPHX - It is this little thing called thermodynamics. Heat flows "downhill", which means from high temperatures to low temperatures. It is possible to push heat uphill, but to do that you have to expend energy. You cannot do it passively.
Unless your wife was just holding an ice cold drink or something, your wife's fingers are actually warmer than room temperature. The reason her fingertips feel colder than your face is that both you and presumably your wife :) are mammals and so constantly generate internal heat that you both dump into the enironment. But air is a poor conductor of heat. This is why liquid cooled systems can dump more heat energy over a given period of time, by the way. Your head has a big mass compared to its surface area compared with your wife's fingers which have a relatively large surface area compared to their mass. This means that your wife's fingers dump heat to the enironment faster than your head does. Since both you and your wife are constantly generating heat, being mammals, your head balances out at a higher temperature at steady state than your wife's fingertips do. When your wife's fingertips touch your head heat flows "downhill" from your head to her fingertips due to the temperature difference, or gradient, between the two. Since your wife's fingertips are warmer than the room it seems counter intuitive that her fingertips would feel colder than the air in the room. But it turns out that the thermal conductivity of her solid fingertips allows heat energy to flow much faster into her than the heat transfers into the air despite the lower temperature difference. The air has both a lower thermal conductivity and a lower themal mass. It thus has to rely on passive thermal convection to cause the air that is warmed by your head to lower in density as it becomes warm and drift upwards, making the way for more cool air to flow up and remove more heat energy from your head. But the higher themal mass and higher thermal conductivity of your wife's fingertips sucks the heat right in and thus feels cooler to the heat sensors in your head.
So it is just an illusion that your wife's fingertips are cooler than the environment.
And if your car is sitting in the garage nothing can cool it below room temperature without expending energy unless that thing is lower in temperature than the room, like a big slab of ice.
· Londo Bell (not verified) · 22 weeks ago
Nope. It's not ignorant. It's stupidity all right.
Don't waste your energy, alt-e, to explain thermodynamics to HotInPHX.
"to prove this to yourself"
You don't need to prove, Volt fan. You can take up university level courses on thermodynamics, such as Physics, or Chemistry, or Engineering on Thermodynamics, to learn it. No, not those 101 courses...
Think about it. If what you were thinking, was true, then how come NO VEHICLE IN THIS WORLD is wrapped around by some sort of liquid cooling system (like the one for the Volt battery)? Instead, there's air-conditioning, which requires tremendous amount of energy...I wonder why Volt engineers didn't think about that.
Good luck on your Volt's battery, because due to your so call proof, and the problem that you do know about (high temperature bad for battery), your Volt will break down very shortly...
· Bobbie64Manor · 21 weeks ago
New light is cast on that question, now that the Chevy Volt’s liquid coolant has been identified as a possible cause of fires that might occur weeks after a severe accident. The response from Nissan—which doesn’t use liquid cooling in the LEAF—has been to distance itself from the issue. For Ford, which does utilize liquid thermal management in its upcoming Focus Electric, the response is to reassure the public about its safety.
Thanks,
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· Bobbie64Manor · 21 weeks ago
New light is cast on that question, now that the Chevy Volt’s liquid coolant has been identified as a possible cause of fires that might occur weeks after a severe accident. The response from Nissan—which doesn’t use liquid cooling in the LEAF—has been to distance itself from the issue. For Ford, which does utilize liquid thermal management in its upcoming Focus Electric, the response is to reassure the public about its safety.
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· derf (not verified) · 14 weeks ago
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· Skotty64 (not verified) · 5 weeks ago
I was curious to try and find information on the Volt TMS cooling behavior to determine how it operates rather than jumping to conclusions like most people. I'm still trying to find hard facts, but I did find one source of information that had this to say:
"The Chevrolet Volt Battery Cooling Loop can tap the cooling power of the air conditioning unit on very hot days to condition the battery."
You can find this at http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-battery-cooling-systems-algori...
This information could be in error (much like any information), and even if true, it is unclear whether this can happen when plugged in or only when in operation.
There are a lot of things we still don't know for sure yet. People need to stop taking such adversarial positions within EV subgroups. I've been seeing a lot of hate flying around in the comments on this site between fans of different EVs and plug-ins, and it is a turn off to new people who might otherwise take interest in the community.
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