I think this kind of demo is counterproductive. People may wonder why Leaf only goes 73 (EPA) miles - and may thing 600 mile car is just around the corner and will decide to wait.
Modified Citroen Berlingo Electric Van Sets Range Record at 621 Miles
Modified Citroen Berlingo electric van sets range record with 621-mile trip.
Limited range is often described as the Achilles' heel of pure electric cars. For routine daily driving of my Nissan LEAF, I almost never feel impinged by its 80 or so miles of range. But once every few weeks, an additional 50 or 60 miles would come in extremely handy.
BEA-tricks, a German company that sells electric car conversion kits, recently demonstrated that nearly any amount of range is possible, if cost and practicality are thrown out the door. That's great to know, but the key question remains: What's the best combination of EV range and price?
BEA-tricks, headed by engineer Daniel Sperling (no relation to the CARB board member), fitted a standard Citroen Berlingo van with 10 lithium-ion battery packs that typically power the Smart Electric Drive. The resulting electric Berlingo van carried a whopping 180 kilowatt-hours' worth of batteries, which consumed almost the entire rear compartment of the vehicle. Even the cheapest assessment of what that amount of energy storage costs would put the Berlingo's oversized battery pack price in the multiple tens of thousands of dollars.
Batteries consume most of the Citroen Berlingo's cargo area.
Two BEA-tricks' drivers hopped in the electric van and headed from Flensburg, Germany to eCarTec's facility in Munich. The 621-mile trek took 17 hours—all on a single charge. "We still had charge remaining. We could have gone another hundred miles, no problem," said Sperling. "We made the drive under real conditions in normal every-day traffic."
Sperling claims that this record is more relevant to the average consumer than some of the other existing range records, because the BEA-tricks van drove on public roads with commercially available batteries, rather than with prototype equipment or on closed tracks. For much of the route, the modified Berlingo cruised along on public roads at speeds between 30 and 50 miles per hour.
I suppose the demonstration has some PR value—potentially grabbing the attention of the public and dispelling the myth that it's absolutely impossible to use an EV for long-distance travel. Mostly, it's just good but very expensive fun, with little practical relevance. At this stage of the game, I'm not looking for a quantum leap in EV range. I'd simply like to see a relatively affordable electric car—maybe about the same cost as a LEAF—with range in the neighborhood of 120 to 150 miles. I know that it's just a matter of time—perhaps three years, right about the time when my lease of the LEAF finishes—before battery costs come down and make that a reality.
About the author
Bradley Berman is the editor of PluginCars.com. Brad writes about alternative energy cars for The New York Times, Detroit Free Press, Reuters and other publications. He is quoted in national media outlets, such as CBS News, ABC News, CNBC, CBC, and MarketWatch. Mr. Berman is a tireless researcher of the green car market. He is the transportation editor at Home Power magazine.
Comments
· EVNow · 15 weeks ago
· indyflick · 15 weeks ago
"We still had charge remaining. We could have gone another hundred miles, no problem," said Sperling.
The obvious question then is why didn't they drive the remaining hundred miles? If you're putting all this effort into a EV PR stunt, why not run it flat?
· Benjamin Nead · 15 weeks ago
Yes, far more practical would be to dust off the DBM vanadium redox battery
that was being used in the record-breaking modified Audi A2 last year at about this time . . .
http://www.plugincars.com/claiming-battery-breakthrough-electric-audi-dr...
A pair of those would take this minivan 621 miles and you'd have enough room in the back cargo area to haul the contents of small apartment.
· ex-EV1 driver · 15 weeks ago
@Anonymous,
"Doesn't Tesla use a similar concept with laptop batteries too?"
If it uses Smart ED batteries, they are made by Tesla for Daimler.
· Jo Borras (not verified) · 15 weeks ago
@EVNow, that's a ludicrous statement to make. That's like saying "Wow, those guys at the Indy 500 are going 240 mph, and the Ferrari I was going to buy only goes 205 mph ... maybe I should wait, 240 is right around the corner!" There have been record cars for as long as there have been cars, and the general public (except, perhaps, for the very daftest among them glued to the daytime court TV) grasps that what they can go buy today is NOT the record car.
· Laurent J. Masson · 15 weeks ago
Hey, that's a French car! Venturi builds it. The normal version has a 80-mile range. Venturi made one with 3 battery packs for a rally Shanghai to Paris last year. They could have added 2 more, but you add cost and weight! There should be more than one ton of batteries in there. If they haven't upgraded the motor, that car should be awfully slow.
· Benjamin Nead · 15 weeks ago
I think EVNow's world-weary observations, Jo, stem from the fact that this record-breaking run doesn't represent an advance in battery technology. It's simply taking existing lithium ions - mass quantities of them - and stuffing the back of a vehicle with them, to the point where you aren't able to haul anything else. As Brad points out in the article. this represents multiple tens of thousands of dollars in batteries.
So, there's a bit of a collective yawn coming from a lot of us who follow this EV stuff fairly closely. It's also the sort of story that morphs into "technological breakthrough" headlines in less informed circles, where neophytes will assume that practical/affordable commercially available 600 mile range EVs are on their way . . . sooner than later.
Those "daftest of Court TV viewers" you allude to? Well, there's a lot more of them out there than you might think! Never mind that the batteries alone in that van might cost as much as a complete Tesla Roadster and take days to recharge at conventional (Level 2 / 220V AC) charging rates. Those facts will get glossed over pretty quickly by many.
More fascinating, I think, was the record-breaking run that occurred a year ago (link, above, in my previous post here,) where a battery of about 2 cubic feet in volume and, presumably, capable of being lifted off the ground by an average adult, took several people in a car approximately 375 miles nonstop. If the developers of that battery are to be believed - and a robust enough grid connection can be accessed - it's something that's capable of recharging far quicker than anything currently available. That's a breakthrough . . . not this.
· EVNow · 15 weeks ago
@Jo Borras "There have been record cars for as long as there have been cars, and the general public (except, perhaps, for the very daftest among them glued to the daytime court TV) grasps that what they can go buy today is NOT the record car."
Not at all. In general people don't understand energy - fewer understand batteries. Everyone has been spoilt by the wonderful 30 million year old energy source that is cheaper than bottled water.
There are also those who think EVs will improve at the same speed as electronics. I regularly hear people saying - its just like cell phones or HDTVs, we will get 500 mile range EV for $20K in 3 years. Infact we get people on MNL asking, if they can take a small battery in the trunc that would extend the range by another 100 miles.
That stunt is counterproductive. Long range drives are only useful for new battery chemistries - like Kolibri did.
· JRP3 · 15 weeks ago
What would really be interesting would be a practical car design that emphasized good aero and light weight and got amazing range from a smaller pack of today's batteries.
· Chris O (not verified) · 15 weeks ago
Benjamin Nead: where did you get the info that the DBM Kolibri battery used in the record attempt was only 2 cubic feet in volume? As far as I know no independent observers were allowed on board of the Audi A2 and the whole project is generally considered to be a hoax. It's much more likely that they did the same exercise in futility as the BEA-Tricks outfit from this article: just stuff it full of run of the mill batteries and it will run for a long time.
· JRP3 · 15 weeks ago
The DBM cells have gone through independent third party testing, I do not think they are generally considered a hoax.
· Chris O (not verified) · 15 weeks ago
Well, the test vehicle went up in flames; the only third party testing involved safety; google their website and you will be underwhelmed by the info it provides, certainly nothing that hints at a breakthrough in energy density and cost. So yes skepticism abounds: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/14/controversy-skepticism-surround-dbm...
· Benjamin Nead · 15 weeks ago
Well, Chris, the whole DBM Kolibri thing last year is what started me checking electric car web sites on a daily basis and, eventually, starting me to make regular posts here on Plug In Cars. Needless to say, I've kept up with the DBM story and you might want to check out this web article, written some months after the February article you have posted above. This generally debunks the earlier "fire cover-up" stories . . .
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/new-test-appears-to-back-rang...
And here's a photo showing variously sized DBM Kolibris.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WESv0kQDGGc/TZjjaea0qBI/AAAAAAAAEwM/DD-58VzQ95...
Yup, the Kolibris are pretty small. But they're also scalable. The technology that DBM uses is, apparently, called vanadium redox and there's much talk that these batteries can be made the size of railroad freight cars for DC grid storage . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery
http://www.energizerresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
So, non-skepticism abounds here. :-)
· Chris O (not verified) · 15 weeks ago
Okay Benjamin:The NYT article: tests indicate that a big pack delivers big range:pretty obvious, clearly the reporter didn't get it's about energy density, no mention of that in the article. The article calls it lithium-metal-polymer batteries BTW.
The picture showing the batteries: how are these rated in terms of KWH?
The Wikipedia article on Vanadium redox (let's pretend it's relevant): did you read the volumetric/gravimetric energy density this chemistry is rated at? Way below lead acid even so yes, these need to be made the size of railroad cars to have any storage capacity to speak of!
I'm afraid the DBM people only manage to take skepticism away from those who haven't got a clue what parameters to look for in battery chemistries.
· EVNow · 15 weeks ago
@Chris
Checkout the thread in Tesla forum. Better info on energy density & price /kwh.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4652-Converted-Audi-A2-goes-605-km-(378mi)-without-charging/page12?highlight=kolibri
· JRP3 · 15 weeks ago
DBM is not using Vanadium Redox technology. There is some speculation that they may be using Vanadium in the cells, but that's not the same thing as Vanadium Redox.
· Benjamin Nead · 14 weeks ago
Alright, Chris . . . please do the math for us. I'm as curious as anyone to know the specifics of the Kolibri's energy density. I just did a quick scan of that 16 page Tesla Forum post EVNow linked for us (above.) But, after what has turned out to be a very long day, my eyes were simply glossed over by all the numbers.
My main point was that many were too quick to equate the fire (which, apparently, involved the yellow/purple A2, but no battery) with fraud and the NYT article from April seems to put that to rest.
As for chemistry, JRP3, I do remember reading somewhere that the Kolibri is some sort of flow battery (a closed loop fuel cell, if you will) and mentions vanadium as a component. Other sources simple state lithium metal polymer.
· Chris O (not verified) · 14 weeks ago
Sorry Benjamin: I can't give you any numbers on DBM's chemistry. That's the whole point: nobody can ( the hallmark of a fraud IMHO). My guess is that whatever DBM has is not that special in terms of energy density; they just did the "BEA-trick": use a huge weight and volume of them at great cost to get impressive range.
· JRP3 · 14 weeks ago
The Audi A2 that they used can't hold a massive battery pack, so the "BEA-trick" won't work. More recent independent third party testing of the battery, though no discussion of weight:
http://www.next-energy.de/tl_files/assets/pressemitteilungen/111102_PM_F...
From everything I've read I'm thinking the specific energy density is at least 280 wh/kg on the low side and maybe 320 wh/kg on the high side, which is very good and well within the realm of possibility. If it is indeed cheaper as claimed it could be a game changer.
Ben, I'm quite sure the battery cannot be a flow battery of any type simply because of the required density. It appears to be a lithium polymer variant. I think you read some mis-information that took the possibility of it containing vanadium and assumed it was a flow battery. As I understand it vanadium cells have higher energy density but also have higher voltage, which can cause problems with electrolytes. They may have solved the electrolyte issue.
· Benjamin Nead · 14 weeks ago
Chris said: "They just did the "BEA-trick": use a huge weight and volume of them at great cost to get impressive range."
JRPS said: "The Audi A2 that they used can't hold a massive battery pack, so the "BEA-trick" won't work. More recent independent third party testing of the battery, though no discussion of weight:"
Yes . . . and even though we don't have an exact weight to compare electrical data against, we are talking about something in a fairly small package that can be hefted around by a human . . . not something that completely fills the back of a small van and weighs a thousand pounds or more.
Big questions still revolve around price and various extraordinary claims of the quickness of charging. But I do think there is more here than what was witnessed a few years ago with the EEstore debacle.
· Chris O (not verified) · 14 weeks ago
JRP3 and Benjamin: feel free to speculate but between the website that was suddenly changed from a weird EV advocacy site to a completely non informative tech firm site; the irregularities during the infamous test run and the fire destroying the evidence I think I have all the info I need to make up my mind. Nor has any link you have provided me yielded the solid numbers that could change my opinion, just endless speculation. The a2 can't hold a massive batterypack? Note that the record attempt was only half that of the BEA-tricksters so with the backseat removed I think there would be plenty of space for mediocre battery tech to provide the range needed. Small package that could be hefted by a human... Just based on a picture of a guy holding two battery modules? Battery scams aren't that uncommon you know. We all know the EEStor saga but lead acids with 2.5X lithium energy density anyone? Check it out here:http://www.ecolocap.com/site/en/mbt-cnt-battery.html
I also have a nice bridge for sale...
· JRP3 · 14 weeks ago
I guess your mind is made up, mine is still open. Unlike EESTOR DBM has a real product, that has been independently tested by a number of different groups, and has been in use in forklifts for a few years as well. Additionally during the first test drive the car was fully viewable and inspected, anyone could have easily seen a giant battery pack in the back seat. There were pictures of the press standing around the car with doors and hatches open. Skepticism is fine but you should also pay attention to known facts. If this is somehow a scam it's been much more out in the open and viewed by third parties than EESTOR.
· JRP3 · 14 weeks ago
How about a picture with people in the back seat?
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4652-Converted-Audi-A2-goe...
· Benjamin Nead · 14 weeks ago
Well, we could beat this one to death. But why bother? I'm content to wait and see what comes next from DBM. They are secretive in certain respects but, if they're really sitting on top of some groundbreaking technology, who can blame them for not spilling all the beans all at once?
Next time we get a story about a potential "record run" EV story, I'll ask again about DBM. It's been a little over 6 months since any significant DBM press has come through, so we're probably due fairly soon.
· Chris O (not verified) · 14 weeks ago
I think everybody claiming to have the miracle battery should have a fair chance. In return I would demand some solid numbers about what it really is they think they have.
As a rule of thumb: you know the ICE-age is over when a battery comes up with all specs starting with the number 2:
200WH/KG (at the pack level)
$200/KWH
2000 charging cycles lifespan
2 minutes recharge to 50%
Maybe DBM will show us numbers like this one day and they will be the next big thing. Until then I'll assume "number 2" is relevant to their technology alright, but in a slightly different way...
· JRP3 · 14 weeks ago
2 minutes recharge to 50% is not reasonable from a power delivery standpoint, nor is it necessary. Since 99.99% of the time you'll be charging at home, cheaply, the very few times you might need a fast charge you can hang out for 10 minutes or so and still come out ahead in terms of time spent "filling up".
· Anonymous (not verified) · 12 weeks ago
What about accident safety? What would happen to the batteries in a severe rear-end accident? Would the passengers be covered with battery acid ... or would the batteries not absorb the impact and, instead, thrust themselves into the passenger area?
· JRP3 · 12 weeks ago
Obviously this is not a safe or practical vehicle, it's a stunt. That said, these are lithium cells, there is no battery acid.
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In terms of demo value, this is an utter waste of resources. Nothing but PR here. If you use more battery, then of course, the range is longer. Flip side is that there is no space left even for a cargo van, and the nightmare of recharging the entire set.
Doesn't Tesla use a similar concept with laptop batteries too?
No ground breaking value on this stunt what-so-ever.