More plugin cars discussions · More Nissan LEAF discussions

Leaf: You must be kidding

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Itmustbeso · · 7 years ago

If you purchase a $25k+ Electric Vechicle like a LEAF that would Not get you from lets San
Francisco to Fresno and/or back without a full time consuming recharge, I would have to
wonder about your intelligence. Even an ole Prius is more appealing.


· · 7 years ago

San Fran to Fresno? You must be kidding? You will be lucky to go from San Fran to Santa Clara and back. Point is, these cars aren't for everyone, but for many, many people they will work just fine. People buy cars for all kinds of reasons, some weigh environmental reasons, energy independence and national security more than others. The good news is that with electric cars hitting the streets, there are more choices for everyone. Personally, I think they are going to sell them as fast as they can make them.

· · 7 years ago

@ Itmustbeso,
How many times a week do you drive from SF to Fresno? How many times to most people you know do it?
What percent of their gas goes to that drive?

· · 7 years ago

Tom is right, it depends on what will work for you. My daily commute is from San Jose to Palo Alto (44 miles round trip). The LEAF is perfect for my daily use. If I ever wanted to go to Fresno, we would take my wife's ICE car.

· · 7 years ago

Perfect, one electric car for commuting and a gas/diesel car for everything else. That means two car payments, two insurance payment, two registrations. Unless you get
rid of the gas car completely you will be doing exactly what the car companies want you
to do, the state will love the revenue, the insurance companies too. In addition, you will have contributed to global warming by doubling the number of cars, and yes, charging your electric car creates leaves a carbon footprint. Then, you have two cars to dispose of, not to mention another huge bill when the electric car batteries go bad. I still stand by my opinion (and I don't own a Prius) that a plug in Prius is a better overall vehicle than a Leaf, at least I can occasionally drive it to Fresno god forbide.

· · 7 years ago

I don't think to many people here are disagreeing with you. It sounds like a plug in Prius is a better car for you and your needs. However don't assume your needs are the same as others are. I've lived for the past 14 months with a 100 mile per charge BEV just fine. My commute is about 65 miles round trip and the car is perfect for it.

Most households have more than one car so the example John used about is a typical situation where a family can use the EV for the majority of driving and commuting while using the 2nd car for long trips and for the spouse that drives less to use. That way you can exploit the low operating cost of the EV as much as possible.

Sounds like you don't want or need an EV, don't buy one then. There are going to be plenty of others lining up to get their hands on one.

· · 7 years ago

You're somewhat wrong about the real costs of keeping 2 cars. Only the costs manufactured by the government double with 2 cars:
Since a car's life is generally a function of the miles driven and your driving miles are split between 2 carts, there may be a need for 2 car payments but you'll be able to keep the car twice as long, hence no real increase. The same goes with global warming impact of manufacturing 2 cars.
Obviously, our infinitely wise government still insists on penalizing you for having 2 cars by requiring you to pay tax and insurance costs on a car whether you use it much or only a little. Actually, Insurance costs for a car that doesn't drive much are generally quite a bit less than for a commuter car that racks up a lot of miles per year.
Tom is right though. Maybe you should just keep buying gas and be thankful that others will buy and use EVs and keep the prices low on gas for you.

· Anonymous · 7 years ago

I really don't think most people will consider waiting hours for a decent charge when there out and about, heck 30 min on a quick charge is a lot for some people they don't want to spend there time chained to the car. the car is great for someone who runs arrands round town then back home. Or like me I'd like to buy the car and use it to commute, but in LA I would have to talk my boss in to installing a charger for the car to sit for 8 hours while I work. that would work but.... one station for one car as soon as more ev cars are on the roads they will have to go to quick chargers- why don't they ( Infrastuture ) just do it right in the first place by installing quick chargers instead of 110v/ 240v there making more work for themselfs and the chance of failure. Does anybody know how much and who I can contact to get an estimate on a charger in california LA area to present it to my boss?

· · 7 years ago

No they probably won't, good thing they won't have to. One of the things that some of us that have had the opportunity to own or lease an EV have been trying to get across is that you won't be standing by your car waiting for it to charge. A 100 mile BEV shouldn't be used to things it isn't capable of doing. If your driving needs dictate that you frequently need to go further than 100 miles than it's not a good choice for you. Wait a while and the ranges will increase. It sounds to me that many people are trying to force a square peg in a round hole when they talk about the need for quick chargers all over the place. One thing I learned with my EV is that even though I drive a lot (70-120 miles per day) I still only drive the car 1.5 to 2 hours a day so there is 22 hours of free time to charge. You charge the car when you are doing something else, and do not need the car like #1 sleeping, #2 working & lastly shopping. Even with fast chargers along the route, a LEAF isn't really the car you want to drive 300 miles to a destination to because then you would be literally waiting for it to charge so you can proceed. If you really want your LEAF but need to occasionally go 300 miles and don't have a 2nd family car, get a zip car for the day.

· · 7 years ago

I have nothing against electric cars and I will be very impressed if a LEAF will go 100 miles with air conditioner on, radio blasting and your I-phone charging and do it for 8 years without degradation.
The LEAF is a new car, essentially a prototype and if you look carefully at Nissan's overall quality,
it is spotty at best. My recommendation would be too wait a couple of years and let OTHER people
be the early adopters to iron out the techology before jumping in. If you can't wait to get one, please be careful when your car dies in bumber to bumper traffic and get the thing off to the side of the road ASAP.. Tow truck operators are going to have a field day with all these electric cars that run out
of juice.

· · 7 years ago

There will no doubt be some issues that pop up with the LEAF once there are thousands of them on the road and people start to find the weaknesses the car may have. As you pointed out it is a completely new car and it is radically different from anything else currently available for sale.
Air conditioning use will reduce your range, the radio and charging your phone not so much.
I suspect that if you do see a LEAF on the side of the road it will be because of some sort of breakdown and not because they "ran out of juice". The only people that seem to continuously bring that up are people that have no EV experience. Talk to someone that has or had an EV and ask them how many times they ran out and they'll probably tell you never. I know I've ran out of gas twice in my life but never out of juice. In fact, the MINI-E program recently concluded it's first year of testing and the 500+ cars logged a total of about 3,000,000 miles. I recently talked to a BMW employee in their electric car division and was told that as far as they know only one person ran out of juice and he was 1 block from his house when he did. From what I've heard about the LEAF it has a very good warning system to alert you when the car is getting low and will even tell you if you will make your destination or not.

I always think it's smart to buy a car in it's second or third year of production so they have worked out any initial quality problems. However with this car I think people will accept some initial problems as long as they are minor. There are a lot of people that have waited a long time for the day they can walk into a dealer, any dealer and drive out with a car that doesn't burn oil. These people will be more than happy to deal with a few early inconveniences, the pay off is well worth it.

· · 7 years ago

I've thought about that with an EV - what to do if I take a longer drive than the miles in the range. Depending on how often the road trips are, occasionally renting a gas vehicle might be the answer. Then you still have the EV for commuting, grocery shopping, and other errands. It's true that for someone on the road a great deal, the Leaf might not be the ideal car. Maybe a Chevy Volt would be a better choice for that.

· · 7 years ago

Of course, if fast chargers get deployed about every 60 - 70 miles, you actually could stop for a quick charge every hour.
That isn't clearly as convenient as a gas car or an EV with closer to 200 - 300 miles per charge with fast charging. With 200 - 300 mile range, you only need to stop every 3 - 4 hours to charge. That's about a reasonable time between food and restroom breaks anyway. You would then be charging during your normal breaks.
The Leaf is clearly not fully up to real-car status but it is getting close. It should be an awesome commuter car for people who commute up to 100 miles per day. I highly recommend you have charging at work if you actually need to go 100 miles per day though.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

There is no maintenance on this vehicle. Just tires and brakes. To charge it overnight at the lowest rate for a So Cal Edison customer costs .25. That is .25 for 100 miles compared to $3.19 in the LA area for a gallon of gas. Conservatively speaking fuel costs alone are one quarter the cost and that is for each and every year.

· · 7 years ago

I think we need to get some more accurate numbers here:
PGE charges .12-14c per Killowatt hour.

Flame me if I'm wrong but I would guess that if you
charged your electric car for 6 hours and we assume
that it's 120VAC @10Amps(Avg) then the approximate cost would
120V*10A = 1.2 Kw per hour
1.2 * .12c = .14c
.14 * 6 = .86 cents ***

Would someone provide more accurate numbers?


· LALeaf (not verified) · 7 years ago

I'm on the waiting list for a Leaf, so I've been working with the Nissan folks since May.
Issue that has not been identified in this post: Nissan believes that the batteries will deteriorate over the projected 5-year life. So there will be a gradual decline in the batteries ability to take a maximum charge.

Also: the home charging unit has turned out to be yet another dealer add-on. The unit costs $300; the electrical work to install it costs $1,200. Permits and add-ons round it up to $2k. My electrical contractor can do the work for under $400, but that reduces the warranty on the charging unit from 3 years to 1 year.

I have a supportive employer who will install a unit at my office, if I buy the car - but the cost issue is approaching a rip-off.

Given all of the emerging info, I'm backing off on the commitment.

· · 7 years ago

Every battery deteriorates over a 5 year period, why would anyone think Nissan's batteries wouldn't? The 2K for the EVSE is expensive, more than it should be for sure. You should be able to get an EVSE yourself and have it installed for much less. Nissan's 8yr/100,000 mile warranty should ease your fears about the battery though. After 8 years and 100,000 miles you will have saved more money with this car than a replacement pack will cost by then.
There will be challenges and obstacles that early adopters will have to deal with, and the EVSE cost and installation process that the LEAF is pushing seems to be less than perfect for sure. Buying the first mass produced electric car isn't going to be for everyone.

· SageBrush (not verified) · 7 years ago

I sure hope Nissan produces a winner with the Leaf. I look forward to reading owner experiences.

As for me -- I am (apparently) an old curmudgeon, unwilling to take a chance on a 1st gen Nissan EV. In fact, the only company I really trust with new EV auto tech at this point is Toyota. I also want a smaller car, and a smaller battery. Bit ironic, considering the general clamor for 400 mile EV range to mirror our ICE cars.

A 50 mile EV mini-car, e.g. starting from the Toyota iQ would be a dream come true. I have heard tentative rumors Toyota might build it. I have my fingers crossed.

In the meantime, good luck to all!

p.s. Darrell, home PV plans on track. You might remember I have 'issues' with using grid electricity for EV.

· · 7 years ago

Your computations are correct but I'm not sure what you're basing them on or what you're trying to figure out.
First of all, I would assume that a Level 1 (120v) charger would draw 12 amps since that is the maximum continuous load (80%) you can draw from a 15 Amp circuit. You can also draw 15 Amps from a 20 Amp 120v circuit. I know the Tesla allows one to manually increase your draw to that.
Next, I'm not sure where your 6 hour number comes from.
Generally we worry about how far we've driven which leads to the energy we've consumed based on the efficiency of the vehicle. That plus the charging power gives how long it will take.
So if you drive a conservative 32 miles in a day and get 4 miles/kWhr, you'll need 8 kWhrs of electricity.
At $.12/kWhr that will cost you $0.96
At 120v x 12a = 1.44 kW it will take 8 x 1.44 = 5.5 hours to charge.
This is how I generally compute what I find to be the key points. How long it will take and how much will it cost.

· · 7 years ago

You'll have to wonder about my intelligence, I guess.

First off, most of my transportation is done by (drum roll, please...) bicycle. Six or eight thousand miles per year. I've never ridden or driven to Fresno, and have no intention of starting.

Second... our main automobile is a 100-mile-range Rav4EV. And has been for eight years now. I didn't pay $25,000 for it though. I paid $42,000 for it.

And here's the best part! I have a real college degree!

· · 7 years ago

Oh... wait. I have a better one. How about the guys who buy cars that are capable of driving 500 miles on one tank? That are equipped to tow several tons? That are capable of driving through deep water and snow? That have the capacity to seat seven people? And then that same guy only uses the vehicle to commute - solo and on pavement - a few miles per day?

Higher or lower intelligence than the guy who buys a LEAF for that task?

· · 7 years ago

Yeah but what happens when there is a week-long power outage, a flood caused by two feet of snow melting and you need to carry your wife and 6 children 250 miles up an unpaved mountain road for safety? I bet your precious little micro-commuter EV can't save you then Darell....

· · 7 years ago

Excellent point, Tom. And it's the same reason that I always carry $20,000 in cash on me, wear ALL of my clothes at all times, and have converted my house into a bunker. There's no such thing as being too prepared!

I'm surprised that more of those SUV commuters don't have intake snorkels installed. I mean... what if that flood gets DEEPER?

· · 7 years ago

OH I love those intake snorkels! Saw one the other day on a shiny new Jeep. No way that thing EVER even drove on unpaved roads let alone through a river. It looked detailed to the max like it could enter a car show. Well, whatever floats your boat, or in this case, your off-road life saving Armageddon buster.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

You know, another consideration if you do 90%+ of your driving within the 100 mile range but are concerned for those special trips to Grandma's house and don't want to pay two car payments....just rent a car. Going to shows me that I can rent an economy size car for about $15/day.

· · 7 years ago

Yup! I do think that we need to streamline the car rental process (like Zip car) but at a more affordable rate (unlike Zip car). Then there's no excuse. You reserve online, how up at the car, swipe your card and off you go. None of that crappy paperwork every time!

· Bill (not verified) · 7 years ago

Itmustbeso...I question your intelligence when you say all electric vehicles have a carbon footprint? Where have you been? Did you do your homework when you went to school because you sure need to do more of it now. Many people will be charging their LEAFs with pvs (solar cells). I plan on charging mine with our pvs during the day off-peak and it will be FREE. :) You, on the other hand can keep supporting BIG OIL and terrorists and keep polluting our precious Earth with your out-of-date gasoline/liquid fuel cars and your hybrids, including the Volt. I'll wave to ya as I drive by ya while your filling up your gasoline or hybrid car. And as far as any trips go, no problem! Once again, you didn't do your homework. There will be thousands of charging stations and many DC fast chargers before the LEAF comes out in Dec. It will only take about 15 mins. extra (most people take driving breaks anyway) because the charge won't be from empty. That trip you talked about will be a piece of cake! I'm going to use my LEAF as my Primary car and I'll be able to drive almost anywhere I choose.

· Green Republicans (not verified) · 7 years ago

We agree 100% with Darelldd - every post!

I drive an '09 Prius for daily commute & errands; 46-48 mpg local, 50-52 mpg highway. We're saving to convert to a plug-in. I'd use zero gas during the typical work-week. The Leaf would work too. We like the fact that Nissan starts assembling the Leaf in Tennessee in 2012. (Likewise, Toyota will hopefully inaugurate that new plant in Mississippi to assemble Priuses for the US & Canadian markets by then too.)

For a family / road-trip vehicle, we're saving towards a plug-in hybrid Ford Escape. Reportedly available by end of 2012.

We're never buying an ICE-only vehicle again :)

· · 7 years ago

> We're never buying an ICE-only vehicle again :)

You know what's funny (and sad)? I said those exact words after my initial test drive of the GM Impact (that became the EV1). Unfortunately, it has taken my family two more gas car purchases to get us to the point where we can actually buy production EVs (since the Rav4EV). Whew. But at least we're here now. I thought we were "here" back in 1994 when I drove the Impact!

Thanks for the support. ;)

· Phred (not verified) · 7 years ago

>>>Itmustbeso...I question your intelligence when you say all electric vehicles have a carbon footprint?

What do you think was used to actually MAKE the materials for the car, the materials for the charging station, AND, the materials for the solar panels? So, there is a carbon footprint no matter HOW green you are, it may be small, but it is there. If you do NOT want a carbon footprint then you have to wink yourself out of existence - even killing yourself isn't good enough because someone would have to DRIVE you to the cemetary.

· Carl H (not verified) · 7 years ago

I am looking forward the the Tesla Model S. 160 miles range for the smallest of the batteries with an option of up to 300 miles. I probably won't even go for the larger battery unless it is a very good deal.

A 160 mile range is something I can live with for all but a very small number of days each year and for those days I'll take my wife's minivan or, if it's nice out, I'll ride my motorcycle.

· · 7 years ago

I'm Baaack! In this thread, we have heard that there is NO carbon footprint for a LEAF
and we are going to charge up all electric vehicles with free Solar, Mr Bill get real! Anonymous making a point indicated that it costs 25 cents to fill up with SoCal Edison, I computed 86 cents and ex-ev1 driver computed 96 cents, its certainly cheaper than gas. Everyone seems to have a backup vehicle plan for their electric vehicle if they want to go long distances(mostly other gas vehicles). Based on all these comments, it still seems
to me that a Plug-In Hybrid like a Prius or even a Volt which has a small gas engine
are better choices than a LEAF. You can buy a low end Prius for about $23k. (I don't own a Prius and I don't work for Toyota) If you want to leave a small carbon footprint, ride your bicycle, be careful and don't become a grease spot in the road.

· · 7 years ago

You are correct that it is necessary today to have a backup vehicle plan for an EV. Fast charging infrastructure doesn't yet exist and battery prices and weight preclude huge amounts of range. That's the reality of living in a transition time. There may always be a limited need for fuel carrying vehicles for certain applications.
My backup vehicle is a 4WD, with limited slip differential, and knobby offroad tires. Except for occasional free weekends or hauling duty, it spends most of its life parked - and plugged in to preserve the battery :-) It has to be refueled every 275 miles :-( I don't plan to ever have to replace it since I go so few miles on it. I look forward to a future EV with 4WD using independent motors and electrical system that are sealed for water immersion so that one doesn't need that snorkel when fording since you can just drive underwater. Maybe I can even drive out to Catalina Island wearing a scuba tank. But then this is my crazy talk.
Back in the real world, my 80 miles per day commuting (we live near my wife's work so she can bike in) is done with pure electricity. Most of it is offset by harvesting the sunshine which would otherwise shorten the life of the oil-based asphalt shingles on my roof.

· · 7 years ago

Indeed, we own two 4WD/AWD vehicles, and just sold one of them in preparation to purchase a LEAF. While I intend to install "Spikes Spider" winter traction devices on the LEAF (more convenient than chains), it won't be as good in the snow as our remaining Pontiac Vibe AWD. Hopefully by the time we are ready to replace the Vibe, which probably has the best gas mileage of any non-hybrid AWD car by the way, we'll be able to purchase a 200-300 mile range EV with AWD. :-)

· · 7 years ago

>> If you want to leave a small carbon footprint, ride your bicycle

I do. Thanks. And you're welcome.

· · 7 years ago

OP is just being contrary, although I agree that an EV run off the grid is, in many ways, about a Prius equivalent. That isn't bad, you know ? And if the owner charges with home PV, EV is the best clean and green option we can choose at this time for motorized transport.

· · 7 years ago

Breaking News! On Monday September 6, The San Jose Mercury News reported per their discussions with Nissan that the LEAF requires a 220/240V 40Amp Electrical
Service. Installation $2200. Nissan stated fully charging a LEAF will be about $2.75. PG&E is required to provide an E-9 rate as low as 5 cents a KWh just for electric vehicles. At the National Average of 11 cents a KWh, and a $2.75 full charge cost, with a 10 hour charge at 220V is about 11.5 Amps.

· · 7 years ago

Itmustbeso -

The E-9 requirement has been on the books for 10+ years(no idea just how long, but that's when I was introduced to it). Many of us "old" EV drivers started on E-9... got solar, and realized we were not able to realize the full value of our solar stystems on that tariff. E-9 was sort of swept under the rug. Sounds like it'll be polished off and brought back to the light of day. It won't make everybody happy. It exchanges REALLY cheap charging at night for REALLY expensive pricing during the day. If an EV is the only thing you use electricity for, you're set!

· Tex (not verified) · 7 years ago

I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to buy one of these, but tree huggers.

· · 7 years ago

> I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to buy one of these, but tree huggers.

Uh... yeah. We've already covere that, I think. Thanks for your compelling input.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

Here's how to figure how much it'l cost to charge:
Battery is a 24kWh capacity
Look at ur home electric bill: (total bill $) divide by (total kWh used)
mine is about 18-19c/kWh
so 24 x 18 = $4.32
this will take you ~100 miles per Nissan
so about 4c/mile
compare to about 8c/mile i pay now ($2.50gal/30mpg)

hope it helps..rob

· · 7 years ago

Anonymous -

Depending on where you live, you could cut that number in half with Time of Use metering for your electricity. Or... you could cut it to zero with a solar system. But even in your worst-case scenario where you just use more power from the grid at the same rate - it is pretty compelling from a cost perspective.

· · 7 years ago

There are 2 rather large errors in the cost/mile calc described.

First, the electric bill has fixed costs. Just use the cents/kwh highest charge on the bill;
Second, no traction battery is completely drained or filled. In the case of the Leaf, I think about 16 kwh is used for the reported 100 mile range.

2 cents/mile is a much closer estmate for most people to buy utility supplied electricity. I think a notable exception would be for some Californians charging at peak rates and who are heavy users.

· · 7 years ago

Electricity rates do vary quite a bit. At my home I pay 18 cents/kWh and at my restaurant 30 miles away I pay 11 cents. My MINI-E has a 35kWh pack with 28kWh usable so if I am completely discharged and fully charge it costs me $3.08 at work and $5.04 at home (even though I have a solar array, because I would be selling the electric to the utility if I wasn't putting it into the car). I can usually always depend on 100 miles per charge unless it's cold outside and the use of the heater reduces the range.
The MINI-E isn't very efficient as far as EV's go since it is really just an ICE car with a battery pack transplant. It isn't very aerodynamic and is very heavy for such a small car so it only manages about 3.5 miles per kWh. Usually you can expect about 4 miles per kWh and some new cars like the LEAF and Volt look like they are going to get around 5 miles per kWh. There for, a good way to easily figure your cost per 100 miles with a LEAF would be to simply multiply your current electric rate(per kWh) by 20 and you will be pretty close to your cost per 100 miles. The National average is 12 cents/kWh so that would mean the LEAF should cost, on average $2.40 to drive 100 miles in the US. This is based on the information that the Leaf will go 100 miles per charge on average as Nissan has stated. If it only goes 80 or 90 miles per charge, then the cost will be slightly higher.

I just did a blog post about electricity usage on my MINI-E blog for anyone interested:

· Paul Scott (not verified) · 7 years ago

One issue that hasn't been covered on this thread is the economic case for EVs based on not buying foreign oil. For every gallon of gas purchased, over 60% of your money leaves the country, and probably 90% of your money leaves your local community. For even a modest sized town, this can be hundreds of millions each year.

Since virtually all of our electricity is domestic, your money spent on kWh stays local, with most of it staying in your bank account. Consider what this means to your local community when you, and thousands of your neighbors, are able to spend that money for local goods and services instead of sending it to the most evil people on Earth.

More of your friends and neighbors will be employed and your local economy will grow and prosper.

BTW, that 60% of foreign oil we buy costs over a billion dollars each and every day. It constitutes about 45% of our foreign deficit. Those who state their preference for burning gas are putting their needs ahead of everyone else.

· · 7 years ago

Paul, that fact certainly hasn't escaped me. I just spent a while on the telephone with a reported discussing just that. In fact, make sure you get a copy of the Wall Street Journal this Saturday. There will be an article by Micheal Ramsey on electric cars. I believe, based on the questions he asked me, that he will be presenting both sides of the argument for and against electric cars. He told me he chose me to "defend" EV's. I believe I did an admirable job, but you never know how the article will be written until you read it. I hope I didn't let everyone down! He said it will be in this Saturday's edition (9/25), unless a big news story bumps it.

· Rockribbed Mensch (not verified) · 7 years ago

When I do the math on owning a Leaf I am assuming charger installation cost willl be offset by saving on maintinance. No oil change, no filter, no tuneups. It is a big upfront cost though $2200. If my electrician can do the work for $400 I would do that and risk a shorter warranty. $300 + $400 would save money unless it needed replacing every year. My biggest problem with the Leaf is finding a dealer in Long Island NY who knows anything about the car or of the process of getting approval for the charger.

· · 7 years ago

Right you are, Paul! I've brought up that very point in many of the other threads, however. Eventually, we'll start to think beyond the initial purchase price and the price at the pump. For now that seems to be all that drives our transportation decisions - but of course the costs go WAY deeper than that!

· elwood (not verified) · 7 years ago

Lets keep this blog on topic:

1) Proprietary $2200 Home Charging Station (OK, but I really wanted a Volt, now
2) MSRP $32780 with discounts to $25280. (Maybe)
3) Nissan is not in the top 10 world car companies for quality. (Its not about
their gas engines, its about everything else!)
4) 100 miles or less on a full charge. (Very Minimalistic)
5) $2.75 average for a full charge. (Not bad)
6) You will keep your gas car for long trips. (You bourgeois capitalist)
7) Resale Value when the batteries get weak. (I'm not even going to speculate)
8) Other choices of Electric Vehicles, Plug-In Hybrids, Hybrids and High Gas mileage
cars. (Lots)

Its all up to you, be an early adopter and take the Leaf plunge or use your head and evaluate this purchase carefully before making this expensive decision. Leaf, you must be kidding.

· · 7 years ago

Where's the future cost of gas in the list? The cost of sending $1 billion every day out of our economy? The cost of the pollution? The cost of health?

Please revise and get back to us before all the kidding gets out of hand.

- Darell

· Elwood (not verified) · 7 years ago

I don't think this blog is about the economy, cost of pollution and the cost of health, its
about purchasing an Electric Car that makes long term sense.

· · 7 years ago

So it's about "what's in it for me?" and nothing else?

If not that, then I don't understand how we can leave the economy, the pollution and health out of the discussion if the duscussion is about what makes long term sense relative to a vehicle purchase decision.

· · 7 years ago

"I don't think this blog is about the economy, cost of pollution and the cost of health"

It most certainly is about those things.

You can decide to buy a car based on any qualification that you personally determine to be important to you and nobody it going to tell you you are wrong or dumb for doing so.

Those reasons are some of the main reasons people want alternative fuel vehicles. Those reasons do influence peoples decisions to buy a car or not, even if they don't influence yours.

Buying an automobile isn't only about the most efficient way to spend your money, it that were the case we wouldn't have the corvettes of the world. Cars are an extension of individuals personality and many people today put a premium on sustainability and the environmental impact of their buying decisions. Then, there are those that view the long term effects of sending nearly 400 billion dollars out of our economy every year for foreign oil as bad economic policy. Since we have plenty of domestic fossil fuel (coal), they would rather use that to power their car and employ US workers at US plants and pay US utility companies for the electricity.

We all have our own reasons why we buy what we buy. My reasons are no less important than yours are.

· · 7 years ago

Wow, the typical blithering opinionated blogger retort to get the last word in! Readers should be careful of the stoolie or stooge when making purchase decisions and mind those preaching to the choir. I'm not going to knock the Nissan Leaf but I suggest you do your research before buying one.

· · 7 years ago

Really? Name calling? Classy. There are certainly better ways to get your message across.

How does this work? You claim that you are not going to knock the Leaf... and you make that claim in a thread that you entitled, "Leaf: You must be kidding me." ??

And you are warning people away from those scary pro-EV guys who have questionable motives?

· · 7 years ago


You have repeatedly stated the a prius or a volt would be a better choice that a LEAF. This is obviously the case for you, but why do you continuously insist that since it wouldn't work for you then it's a bad choice for anybody?

Go buy whatever car you feel suits your needs, nobody here is going to call you a fool for doing so. Why do you fell the need to say you would question the intelligence of anyone that would buy a car that can't drive from San Fran to Fresno?

Then you say your not going to knock the Nissan LEAF!
It's you that must be kidding

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

screw carbon neutral. go carbon negative with pyrolysis electricity generation by making biochar as you make your electricity and fix carbon in the ground. It is like a coal burning power plant in reverse because it takes biomass that would rot and produce co2 and methane and forms a solid carbon soil additive that makes soil up to 880 times more productive. Look up Terra Preta the Portuguese word for black earth or check out one of these pyrolysis machines at

· Elwood (not verified) · 7 years ago

Read Nick Chambers blog on this website about Nissan Leaf under "For Next Gen LEAF, Nissan Will Likely Make Regional Tweaks, Address Initial Shortcomings" about Nissan's plan to "fix" some defects already in the current Leaf in a couple of years. Seems Itmustbeso is on to something.

· · 7 years ago

Why ? Because the next gen LEAF will be better than the first ? I'll accept that as a foregone conclusion. I am amused by people who bash the LEAF for only having ~ 100 range; I find it unsuitable for me because it has *too* much range. As in, too much expensive, heavy battery I would not use. For me a 50 EV car will be perfect. Oh, and Yaris size please.

· · 7 years ago

Well I hope the 2nd generation LEAF improves on some of the shortcomings of the original one, if not then why make a 2nd gen?

This holds for all technology. Take cell phones. If you keep waiting for the next, improved phone then you'll never buy one because just as they introduce the latest, greatest phone you start to hear about how the one coming out in 6 months is soo much better.

The LEAF has shortcomings for sure. For me the 3.3kw charger is the most glaring deficiency. As it is it will work fine for many people, but not for everyone. In my opinion it is a big first step in the direction we need to be moving in.

· · 7 years ago

EVERYTHING has shortcomings. EVERYTHING can be improved. Yes, even me. ;)

· Jim Reed (not verified) · 7 years ago

Overall,I really enjoyed this string. Your box on Community Discussion Etiquette is really good. It would be great if all read it and embraced it when they posted.

I think the recurrent message that the Leaf will be outstanding for many and unsatisfactory for many is really important. With hundreds of cars to choose from for a wide variety of reasons each will choose, it is really nice that those of us that want an EV will finally have a production EV to choose. It appears that finally those of us that do not live in CA will have the opportunity to buy an EV that will be supported in a large enough volume to approach some level of economic viability.

I am hoping that the timing will be right so that our economy revises fast enough so that there is enough disposable income for enough people so that the Leaf, Volt, and the other plug in choices have the sales to show that there is justification for future improvements and development. We were earlier adopters of the Civic hybrids,Prius, and Insight but current economics are going to prevent us from being an early adopter of the Leaf even though if would be a great replacement for our Insight. Our Insight (125k miles) and Prius (195k miles) are going to have to last us through 2015 but then there will be at least one EV in this household and the other will be a plug in hybrid.

Thanks to all that are supporting the movement.

· Erik (not verified) · 7 years ago

I think an important factor when considering EVs is the future price of electricity and gasoline. Both will most likely cost more in the future, but I believe gasoline will rise much faster due to peak oil concerns and the fact that electricity can be made from many sources, most of which are abundant in the US.

My current cost per mile in my ICE car is 9 cents, and the LEAF will be around 3.5 cents per mile using my electric rates. This assumes all 24kWh are indeed needed to charge up - if it is actually only charging 16kWh, getting 100 miles with that, and keeping the other in reserve to preserve battery integrity (as someone else suggested), then the cost is closer to 2 cents per mile. If gasoline goes back to 4 dollars per gallon or higher, then the LEAF begins to look like a better deal long-term. It's still really not that huge of a savings due to the high price of the LEAF to begin with though. A comparable Vibe or Matrix is easily $8,000 cheaper for equal size and quality, and with the LEAF you really need all the rebates and incentives to come through for you (which as I understand it are limited).

· Elwood (not verified) · 7 years ago

Obama's response to last nights election results:

"He also virtually abandoned his legislation — hopelessly stalled in the Senate — featuring economic incentives to reduce carbon emissions from power plants, vehicles and other sources."

Will Leaf buyers still get a tax incentive from the Feds?

· · 7 years ago

When will the first customers get their own leafs? It will be a while before I get mine in Chicago so I am hoping to enjoy reading the reviews of more lucky owners in the mean time.

· cyclingscholar (not verified) · 7 years ago

Boy...sure wish I had my battery operated Nissan leaf in this weeks midwest Blizzard! Just what America needs...a car that lets ya down when ya most need it. No wonder the Anointed One gave it a $7500 tax credit.

· · 7 years ago

@cyclingscholar -

Huh? So if I understand correctly, gasoline cars always start in blizzards, and EVs don't? Or did I miss something? I've never owned a more reliable car than my EV has proven to be over the past eight years of driving it every day.

Why the assumption that the Leaf would let you down? Where does that even come from? Because you don't like Obama? Wow.

· · 7 years ago

C'mon Darell, everybody knows that EV's are going to be stranding their drivers all over the place especially once it begins to snow. Have you been living under a rock?

Seriously though, I'm not sure what experience you have had in CA, but last winter was one of the worst we have had here in NJ in a long time. I drove my MINI-E every day, even when we had 20+ inches of snow. I posted pictures of it parked next to snow drifts higher than the roof and that was after I drove 40 miles in the blizzard to get there. I just had new snow tires put on this week so I'm read for another go around this year. Funny, but the people that have the least experience with EV's seem to have the most to say about them.

· · 7 years ago

> Funny, but the people that have the least experience with EV's seem to have the most to say about them. <

True that! And there is no stronger force in nature than the status quo. Fear the unknown!

I'll let you take care of the cold testing, and I'll do the hot. Cold around here is in the high 20's. Brrr. That's POSITIVE 20's. ;) But we do hot pretty well. Normally gets to about 110 for a couple of weeks each year. And I've often driven our ancient EV 92 miles on the freeway at that temp... with the AC blasting. I'm still alive to talk about it...

· · 7 years ago

Sooner or (probably) later, I hope to be able to take care of the "mountain testing" in an EV. :-) Actually, last night after dinner with my wife in a mountain town a little higher than ours, we ended up driving our Prius the final six miles purely in "stealth" EV mode. That included the last mile effectively as a "neighborhood electric vehicle" up and down a 100' high hill. Thanks to regen, we still arrived at home with a mostly full battery. EV driving is *fun*, and will be that much more so when we can stomp on the accelerator without a gas engine coming on. I'm hoping it won't be too long before we see LEAFs (or Focus EVs, etc.) gracing these mountain curves!

· · 7 years ago

My Rav tackles the mountains of San Francisco regularlyl!

· · 7 years ago

By "mountains" I also mean climbing 5000' over 14 miles, i.e., our drive home from the "flatlands". We know from others' experience that EVs can do it. You'd just need plenty of charge at the bottom of the mountain. In terms of the rate of battery discharge, climbing our mountain in a LEAF would likely be similar to driving at close to maximum speed on the freeway for 20 minutes (the climb duration). My guess is this wouldn't be any harder on the battery pack than doing a DC fast charge, but we probably won't know for sure until we have long-term "testers".

· Kent (not verified) · 7 years ago

Many people seem stuck on the current range limitations of electric cars because they are use to not needing to think about it with gas cars. It does not matter that they rarely drive more than 50 miles in one day or not -- they COULD drive 50 miles with their petroleum beast so they MUST have the same option with any alternate transportation. But an electric car serves different needs than a gas car and vice versa with different advantages and disavantages -- just like a cell phone serves different needs from a landline and have different advantages. Cell phones are sure convenient, but like electric cars, cell phones have the disadvantage that -- unlike a landline -- one needs to worry about the duration of the battery. I can hear the usual electric car opponents try to argue that cell phones are completely worthless and should be trashed because they want to be able to talk (complain) longer than the battery will last (and they will) and they should not have to worry about this problem (because they can talk/complain forever on their landlines). The reality is that electric cars can ONLY meet the driving needs of 95% of the population 80% of the time. But -- heh --- that's not a bad start and with improvements in technology these numbers will get higher. Already they have a fast charger that can quickly charge your lithium batteries to 80% charge in less than 30 minutes. Plant a few of these suckers in large metro areas to start and we will greatly and quickly improve the range and use of electric cars. Personally I am excited about these new cars and I think many more will be too after they find out that they can easily modify their behaviors and lives (like they did with their cell phones) to accomodate the much cheaper, quieter and cleaner electric car.

· Kent (not verified) · 7 years ago

When determining whether an EV makes financial sense, many people simply compare the gas pump price to the price of electricity and compare the cost of purchasing the gas and electric cars. Since EVs still tend to cost more, the reduced fuel cost must make up for a large financial disadvantage up front. But this kind of math is inaccurate. First, our government gives major subsidies (i.e. billions) yearly to the oil companies which allows them to keep the price of gas artificially low (socialists like George Bush and Dick Cheney did this too). Who ultimately pays these subsidies? We do. So, in other words, the price we pay at the pump does not accurately reflect the actual costs we pay in using the petroleum products. So you cannot simply compare the gas pump price to the price of electricity as consumers are secretly paying a much higher price for pertroleum. Also, to be accurate, we must factor in the other costs we pay for our use of petroleum (and electricity) such as the costs to clean up oil spills (and electricty spills) and the cost we consumers pay for cleaning up or living with the air, noise and water pollution. Of course these calculations are complex and virtually impossible to make definitively (what are all of the financial "costs" of living with noise, water or air pollution?). But we know that -- unlike gas cars -- electric cars do not pollute the air with sound or toxic gases and noise and air pollution do major damage to our health, happiness and condition and appearances of our buildings and cities. So even if the price of electric cars were the same or higher than the subsidized pump price of gas, we derive substantial important benefits (beyond measurable dollars) from using electric cars that directly affect our enjoyment of life. By the way, if you go many countries around the world, including Europe, you will find consumers pay about $7 per gallon, which is much closer to the actual price of gas than the subsidized $3 price that we pay (In venezuala the government subsidizes it more heavily than us and they pay under $1 a gallon).

· · 7 years ago

My son recently bought a 2003 Prius, he went about 10 miles and he couldn't start it. Toyota said it would cost about $4000 to replace the worn out NiMh batteries. He took it back and the shark used car dealer returned his money. This car is 7 years old.

Nissan states that it costs $2.75 to fully charge a Leaf and it will go 100 miles on a charge. Other blogs on this site have shown numbers all the way down to 60 miles/charge. The Leaf won't be getting 100 miles to a charge after 7 years!

Lets say you drive 10k miles/year and your Leaf actually gets 100 miles/charge and the price of gas does not go over $3.00 gallon. Don't gaga me with your brilliance about
future gas prices!

7years*100charges*$2.75charge = $1925 cost to charge for 7 years
7years*250gallons*$3.00gas = $5250 to fill up your 40mpg car.

Although Nissan guarantees the battery for 8 years you are going to need a new
battery. Lets assume the cost of a Nissan Leaf battery is the same as a Prius
$1925 + $4000 = $5925 Leaf Cost after 7 years.
$5250 = ICE car @ 40 miles/ gallon after 7 years.

The 7 year cost of ownership of the Leaf vs the 40mpg ICE is probably pretty comparable. If you're smart, you would drive the Leaf 6-8 years and dump the problem on someone else or send it to the scrap heap(More Pullution). Pumping $4k in a 7 year old car is not the American way.

At any rate, you should get rid of your gas guzzling polluting clunker and buy a high gas mileage car OR be an early Leaf Adopter and spare my air(Thank you).

· · 7 years ago

> ....and the price of gas does not go over $3.00 gallon. Don't gaga me with your brilliance about
future gas prices! <
No need to talk about future gas prices to find that the mark is already missed. Today it is $3.32 here in San Francisco. And my solar power is *still* free. So my math works out a bit differently than yours *today* without even having to get into the reality of increasing gas prices, and decreasing battery costs (Li-ion battery prices have fallen at 8% per year for the past ten yers). I mean why worry about what's most likely to happen to prices if that dosn't make your point stronger?

And obviously we should ignore the billions that go into the military protection of our oil rights, yadda, yadda.

Bottom line - if we make this ONLY about the money we pay out of pocket, we're just fooling ourselves.

· · 7 years ago

Let's see if I got this straight, the $4k battery cost I quoted is directly from Toyota (7 years later) and you are saying this is BS in the future; $3 gallon is the "current" US national average for gas, sorry SF. You are like the Real Estate People who told me to buy a house 2 years ago at the peak because it was a good investment, thank goodness I didn't take that advice. I am looking forward to hear about remaining 2010 Leaf miles/charge 7 years from now. By the way, if I lived in SF, I would take public transportation.

I'm the one who started this blog and I'm actually learning toward electric cars!
So, Thank all you early adopters for making it happen and telling us your stories.

· · 7 years ago

Great news on your last line there, Itmustbeso. I'll assume you're being serious...

Just for the record, I do not live in SF. I'm visiting here (hey look, drove my 8-year old EV here with the original batteries. Imagine!). And when I'm here I DO take public transportation. Or ride my bike... or take the EV when transporting my 86-year-old mother-in-law.

So really, here's what I call BS on:
Youi've got one example of a Prius battery gone bad. Do you know how rare that is with the Gen2 and Gen3 cars? All that your example has demonstrated is that buying used cars is a crap shoot. But you take that one tiny data point, and project it to EVs, and grab prices out of the air to try and make a logical point. I guess I took exception to you NOT wanting anybody to bring up the future price of gasoline, while you determine when EV batteries will fail, and what costs will be. I'm not sure how you expect any sort of accurate picture of things by randomly choosing future pricing and need or product.

For the record, we've got a large percentage of our 9-year-old EVs with ancient battery tech (developed in the early 90's) that are still rolling along on original batteries and returning the same range they had when new. Please don't think of battery cars as disposable vehicles. It just isn't the case.

But anyway... good for you for at least reading and listening.

· · 7 years ago

Itmustbeso: There is also one more thing you need to consider when you calculate your total cost of ownership comparing the EV to an ICE and that's maintenance. There is virtually no regularly required maintenance on electric cars.

Electric cars have very little moving parts. There isn't hundreds of parts creating friction and wearing each other out like you get in a conventional car. You don't need oil changes, think of all the regular maintenance you have on an ICE, none of that is necessary with an EV. There are RAV4 Ev drivers in California (ask Daryll) that have 100,000 miles on them and never spent one penny for any maintenance. All they ever needed was tires and wiper blades. Even the brake pads will last three to four times as long as on a regular car because the regenerative braking does most of the work. I have almost 50,000 miles on my MINI-E and the brake pads aren't even half spent.

Yes, looming down the road is that one big expense, the battery pack. However adding up your fuel savings as well as the savings on maintenance and you'll find that you are way ahead of the game.

· · 7 years ago

Thanks Tom!

Maintenance costs can be a huge issue. How about just the *time* it takes for an oil change that an EV never needs? How about the time it takes to stop by the gas station every few days or weeks or whatever? Takes about four seconds a day to charge the car... takes many minutes to put gas into it. Do we assign any cost to time as I know those who favor high-speed driving will want to do?

Yes, there are so many more facets to the equation than the price of the car and the price of the fuel (and/or battery). Basing a purchase decision on those simple financials isn't going to give you any clear picture of what it will cost to own the car.

And we haven't even touched on the "big picture" stuff. How much money do you assign to human health? Human life? The health and life of other living things? How much do you assign to our huge trade deficit that gets bigger every day as we purchase $2 billion of oil from foreign nations?

No, the price of the car and the price of the fuel + battery barely gets the ball rolling.

· Brother Hiram (not verified) · 7 years ago

I'm just trying to understand this

I commute 80 miles round trip every week day 50 weeks a year that makes it an even 20k per year

I change my car every 5 years (typically once it hits 120k) so the leaf would work for me because I could trade it in once the batteries start to deteriorate.
But here is my problem
25k vehicle
2k to install charging station
3 bucks per 100 miles so 300.00 in energy cost over 5 years
Total 5 year roi 27300

I own a hyundai accent
Cost 11000
Oil change as redone ded by mfr every 6000 miles at 30 a pop
Avg 3.50 per gallon (assuming high gas costs)

500 oil changes
2,778 gallons of gas over 5 yrs $9723

11k car
9723 in gas
500 in oil changes
Total of 21223

Looks to me that the ROI simply isn't there

· · 7 years ago

If that's all you are accounting for, then you're right! Doesn't add up. Do we put any price on the health damage of gasoline (and electricity)? On the evironmental damage of gasoline (and electricity)? On the economic damage of gasoline to the tune of $2 billion leaving out economy every day? To the tune of billions in military protection of our oil rights around the world? Our electricity dollars stay domestic... but we don't account for that huge difference?

Yes if we remain short-sighted and retain the "what's in it for me?" attitude, the ROI will never be there.

· · 7 years ago

@darelldd, "never" is a long time. I would expect the prices of EVs and battery packs to come down as manufacturing volume increases. And if gas prices go way up, those ROI numbers will change.

That quibble aside, my views on the real reasons for driving an EV versus an ICE car are precisely the same as yours. And I'm willing to pay for the privilege of NOT shipping my dollars overseas to support the world oil infrastructure and the nasty oil countries.

· · 7 years ago

@Brother Hiram: Gas prices will most likely *will* go up. And you can spend a lot less than $2K on the charger if you get your own electrician to install it. Plus, my understanding is that the LEAF is a lot more enjoyable to drive than a regular gas car. So, even if you're not looking at the externalities, the LEAF could be a good choice for you.

· · 7 years ago

@dgpcolorado - hey you know me... I was just trying to be agreeable. ; )

@abasile - a great point that is so often ignored. The driving experience is not the same. Aren't we used to paying more for things that are better? Or does a Porsche cost the same as a VW?

· · 7 years ago

San Jose Mercury News Sunday January 9th, "'Delivery anxiety' for Leaf Buyers" discusses in great deal the loooonnnng wait for passionate early adopters of the Leaf.
Delivery might even go into 2012. If that's the case, "You must be kidding" takes on
all new meaning. This blog might want to add a new vehicle to these blogs, the all new
made in America ALL electric Ford Focus due out in 2012, it might be available before the Leaf.

· · 7 years ago

I love the guy who wants to compare a leaf to an accent and then decides that its not worth it. By that analysis, no one should buy any car other than a used geo metro that gets 45mpg and can be had for $3000 dollars

look, I can do the same analysis and make the leaf look like an amazing deal

I commute 80 miles round trip every week day 50 weeks a year that makes it an even 20k per year

I change my car every 5 years (typically once it hits 120k) so the leaf would work for me because I could trade it in once the batteries start to deteriorate.
But here is my problem
25k vehicle
2k to install charging station
3 bucks per 100 miles so 300.00 in energy cost over 5 years
Total 5 year roi 27300

I own a Maybach
Cost 426,000
Oil change as redone ded by mfr every 6000 miles at 30 a pop
Avg 3.50 per gallon (assuming high gas costs)

500 oil changes
10000 gallons of gas over 5 yrs $35000
426k car
35k in gas
500 in oil changes
Total of $461,500

the leaf is a complete STEAL!

· · 7 years ago

Oh neoplasticity, you're just being silly. Gas will never go up! You should be using $3.00 for gasoline like it is today on average. So you're only looking at like $456,500 tops.

· · 7 years ago

I was so wrong, gas is over $4.20 per gallon, I'm buying a Volt.

· · 7 years ago

Why not buy a car that doesn't use gas?

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

The fact is this HAS to happen. Is it a pain to start and get going, yes. But being able to actually go outside, be able to breathe clean air, and reduce the cases of lung developement problems, ashma, cancer rates, global warming, smog alerts. The government has stopped this from happening many times in the past, they WANT us to WANT oil! Electric cars have no combustion engines, which equals basically no matenience, and more importantly no c02 gases.. We are killing our planets, and each other. the average person drives 29 miles per day, most people CAN use this car. The batteries are NOT the same, they last generally past the life of the car. Get with the program and learn why this hasent happened. I suggest you all watch "Who killed The Electric Car" and get your facts straight.

· · 7 years ago

@Itmustbeso · "San Jose Mercury News Sunday January 9th, "'Delivery anxiety' for Leaf Buyers" discusses in great deal the loooonnnng wait for passionate early adopters of the Leaf. Delivery might even go into 2012."

Everyone in the early rollout states who have already reserved will get the car before the end of the summer.

BTW, you don't think Ford Focus EV will be easily available and delivered to everyone who wants one on the first day, right ?

· NC10T (not verified) · 7 years ago

Did you know:
...That electric plants powered by coal and gas are about 35% efficient?
...That 1/3 of the power generated in the USA is LOST in transmission?
...That America is STILL on the verge of brownouts/blackouts from its overloaded grid under that moratorium greenies caused on nuclear power for 30 years?
...That anything powered with batteries requires battery replacement?
If I'm buying your used EV, I'm going to assume its $7000 battery pack is shot. Your asking price will drop because it needs a battery worth more (6 years from now, not tomorrow, assuming the battery pack is still produced in the first place.. Rare batteries from 2011 in 2017 for "vintage electric cars" that haven't been made in 3 or more years are going to be EX-PEN-SIVE, indeed.....
That your electric utility will be standing at the speaker's podium of the future rate hearings of your public service commission smiling from ear to ear if EVs blackout the grid, night after night. Will $6 KwH electric replace $6/gallon gas....except it for your WHOLE HOUSE usage, not just the car in the garage to pay for the new $480B nuke power plant?

Thanks....See you on the way to Fresno in my gas-guzzling Smart car because some idiot won't bring the 85mpg DIESEL into America!

· · 7 years ago

Sheesh, another one of these. While were asking questions...
Did you know:
...It takes about 6kWh of electricity to refine a gallon of gasoline, enough energy to power an EV 20-30 miles:
...70% of the energy created by burning gasoline in an automobile is LOST to waste heat
....That America is STILL spending(borrowing) ONE BILLION DOLLARS A DAY to import oil. That money leaves our economy and never returns. 100% of the money spent on electricity stays in the US economy.
....That anything powered by an internal combustion engine wears out because of the massive heat and friction, and requires constant maintenance(oil changes, tune ups) to keep it from literally destroying itself.
...If I'm buying your used ICE car I'm going to assume you didn't change the oil or anti freeze regularly, didn't change the timing chain or belt, never changed the gas filter, air filter or spark plugs, and hid the fact that the muffler and catalytic converter is rusted out and ready to fall off.
...That Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Muammar al-Qaddafi & Basil al-Assad are standing at a podium, hand and hand telling us that oil is going to be $250/barrel in the near future

Thanks, I'll see you while I'm driving around in my electric cars that I refueled with electricity I produced with my home solar array.

Keep drinking the cool aid my friend....

· · 7 years ago

@ NC10T -

Nope. I didn't know any of that. I still don't know any of that.

· · 7 years ago

Tom, Well said. You have remarkable patience to respond so comprehensively to such an ill-informed troll.

· · 7 years ago

This is going to be a great thread for history. It contains all of the phases of denial and resistance and seems to be living for a long time. It started when gasoline was less than $3/gallon across the country and today's wimpy EVs were not even available and may last until gas really gets expensive and EVs that are real cars get on the road.
Personally, I appreciate NC10T's willingness to document the ignorance which he shares with a large portion of the US population and the publicists trying to discredit opposition to the status quo. Without his blatant interjections, this site would be strictly one-sided :-)

· Travisty (not verified) · 7 years ago


You can 'believe' what NC10T said though =P

Belief is the bane of knowledge.

· · 5 years ago

Two years ago I said you couldn't drive the Leaf from San Jose to Los Banos. I hear they have a "new" battery that allows you to go from 73 miles to 75 miles. Whooopeee!

· · 5 years ago

Nobody cares what you said 2 years ago, and we care even less now.

· · 5 years ago

@itmustbeso -

Two years ago, my longest single-day bicycle ride was 146 miles. Today, my longest is 200. What I'm hearing from you is that a bicycle would be a much better fit for your transportation needs than a LEAF.

Why would you spend so much time being upset that a car exists that doesn't fit your (view of) your needs? Why don't you go buy a Tesla Model S with 250-300 miles of range, and be done with it? (I hesitate to put words in your mouth, but I'll go ahead and guess that the answer will have the words "too expensive" in it. And if you WERE going to say that, I'd like to hear how much money you assign to the damage caused by using traditional transportation. thanks!)

Now that we're on the subject of cost (thanks, Darell!) did you also hear that the new battery weighs 30 kg less? Did you hear that the price of the car dropped significantly? All this, and the car has a bit more range. Nissan is in business to sell a large number of EVs. They have to keep their eye on the cost at all times - you know - for the people who say that the Tesla is too expensive. They could easily make a car with 2x the range... but at what cost? They're aiming for the sweet spot: Enough range for most people, cheap enough for most people. You apparently fall out of that range. 100's of thousands of others fall squarely into that range. Be happy.

· · 3 years ago

Today is December 5th, 2014. Mr. Goshen of Nissan recently told a press review that his company was going to add batteries to the Leaf that would make it go 200+ miles on a single charge. He didn't say exactly when! When I opened this blog 4 years ago, my premise was that the initial Leaf had inadequate mileage (Turns out to be ~80 miles on full charge if you can actually find a charging station) and you can not drive the Leaf from San Francisco to Los Banos on 1 charge. I was flamed multiple times for my opinions. Unless these early adapter Leaf's can be retrofitted with new batteries, they won't be of much value on the resale market. I stand vindicated!

· · 3 years ago

"I stand vindicated!"

As before, you are of course welcome to express your opinion. I only ask that you try your best to avoid confusing it with relevant reality.

Yeah, we still understand that EVs have a finite range on a single charge. Got it. If that's still your main point, you've been vindicated I guess.

· · 3 years ago

I love my leaf. under the right conditions you can put a LOT of miles on a leaf. even at 20' freezing temps.

I AVERAGE 100-120 miles "per day" on my leaf. I deliver pizza. my full charge range is 60 miles safety 65 pushing it NO heat at these temps and I Have to use 18 miles to get to and from work.

solution? got permission to bring in an electrician and put a 240v outlet at work. Problem solved. cost me $50 in stuff $75 to the electrician (neighbor certified electrician) done.

they don't even charge me for the electricity (50 or 60 cents a day I estimate)

I keep a geo metro at work as "backup" in case I run the battery down faster than I can recharge it.

these cars are useless for average people. if you drive a short enough distance that its range is not an issue your never going to save any money driving one.

if you need to go too far you won't have enough range.

so you need to understand its limitations AND your situation and see if its compatible. if it is.... CASH baby. driving my leaf MAKES me cash.

I have owned my leaf for 4 months as of yesterday. I have put over 8400 miles on it in that time. 8400 gas free miles. BLISS.

EVEN at $2 a gallon gas I am saving boat loads of cash. at 2100 miles a month average (that will climb as the temps warm up) that is $262 a month in gas. or about what the car costs me a month.

not bad. $500 a month at $4 a gallon.

oh and almost no maintenance at all.

I freaking love my leaf. love it so much.

I SURE hope we can retrofit that 200mile range pack into the older leafs. PLEASE nissan if you read this please don't forget those of us who helped you get their!!!

200mile range would mean EASY 100mile range drop dead worse case condition 20" heat blasting. I would SO love that. so love it.

I could easily see getting 200,000 miles on a battery pack with that much reserve capacity!!

· · 2 years ago

Hey darelldd,

Today is Jan 11,2016. Avg US gas price is $2.00 gallon, higher in California but lets
just say it is $3.00 gallon. GM has a 200 mile per charge Bolt, Tesla has nearly 250 miles per charge. The original Leaf battery was under sized, their resale value is in the
toilet and they can't give away new 2015 Leafs because of less than 100 mile range.
I want to thank the Leaf early adopters for your patience and you helped the plug in car market progress to where we our now. Maybe Nissan will take care of you and offer a larger replacement battery but I wouldn't hold my breath.

· · 2 years ago

Wow. Yearly reports now! :-)

Yes, we are now in exciting times. 200 miles of range is now the bar to beat. So awesome that we've come so far in such a short period of time. And... you are welcome for the many years of patience and support at the bleeding edge that has brought us to today's offerings. I appreciate the acknowledgement.

What's awesome is that this is happening in the face of ludicrously low gas prices. There's no stopping the tide now.

Community discussion etiquette

Remember the golden rule.
No personal attacks. If somebody else is a jerk, stay away. No matter how they might provoke you.
If you know something, say something.
Myths about plug-in cars need to be dispelled. Don't be stingy with your knowledge. Share it with our community. But please separate fact from opinion.
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Newcomers may ask dumb questions. That's okay. A lot of valued contributors started out this way. The plug-in car movement will grow one driver at a time. Be welcoming and our ranks will grow.

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