GM Sees Different Engine as Key to Next Gen Chevy Volt Fuel Economy Gains

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

When the folks at GM laid out their aggressive development plan for the Chevrolet Volt a bit more than three years ago, the decision was made to go with an off-the-shelf, inexpensive and volume-produced engine.

The 1.4 liter engine they settled on was already being produced by GM; a turbocharged version of it is used in the Chevy Cruze. Although the engine is small and relatively efficient, it by no means was the best choice to maximize fuel economy. Likely the choice of engine was governed more by the aggressive timeline and lack of capital to engineer a new engine specifically for the requirements of a range extender.

Even now, hints are starting to come in that the Volt's fuel economy after the battery is depleted will be less than stellar (sub-30 mpg, anyone?). And so, now that the initial launch is soon upon them, GM has begun the process of reevaluating the Volt's engine setup and thinking about which engines might best work in the Volt.

Tony Posawatz, the Volt Line Director at GM, admits that they didn't initially spend a lot of resources on the extended-range feature of the first generation Volt, but says, "You can bet that we are already looking at advanced projects on what an extended-range feature should operate like in the belief that this propulsion system will resonate with customers. That may be a Stirling cycle engine, perhaps it’s a Wankel, a gas turbine, a small displacement motorcycle engine– you can extend the possibilities to a lot of different alternatives.”

A Stirling-powered Volt... that would be interesting.

Source: GM-Volt.com

Comments

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

I'm more interested in finding information on when the BEV version of the volt will come out then what kind of engine will be in gen2 EREV. There have been many GM employees that have hinted and even come right out and said there would be a BEV volt (Shad Balch and even Bob Lutz himself) the question is when. I'd love to see battery specs and projected release dates, hopefully we won't have to wait too long.
Here's a Car and Driver article about it:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/pure-ev-chevrolet-volt-in-the-works-accordi...

· TrasKY (not verified) · 1 year ago

I think there is a lot about this car we just won't know until we know. Despite everything negative I hear, this is still the EV I can most imagine using. I split my time between two very cities with heavy traffic and very, very rarely drive more than 40 miles in a day, but when I do, it is usually more than 200 miles. In other words, between the Volt and the Leaf, the Volt is the only one that could be my only car, whereas the Leaf would have to be a day to day car and I would either have to rent a vehicle or own a second one in order to take long car trips.

PS. I think I am responding more to your link than your post. Whoops.

· Brad Berman · 1 year ago

Nick - I don't think we should draw any conclusions about the MPG of the Volt in charge sustaining mode by looking at any one drive cycle. We just don't know enough about the conditions of any specific ride to say that's what the vehicle does on average. Our ride in the LEAF was not representative of the car's average energy usage:

http://www.plugincars.com/first-drive-nissan-leaf-shatters-range-concern...

In my Prius and Civic Hybrid, some stretches produce mileage in the mid-30s but more commonly I get high 40s.

My hunch is that the Volt, based on its system, aero and size, will do a lot better than 30 mpg on average--probably 40 mpg or higher. We'll know soon enough. Until then, it's one anecdotal report.

· TechExplorer · 1 year ago

I have been a big Fan of the Volt,but as info. comes out,and if the engine choice for regen. is true about such low MPG,etc. it would be Great disappointment to say the least. Version Two may be the one that everyone was hoping for,but as in the Past GM is Short sighted and has not learned from its mistakes so doomed to repeat them .

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

Not sure it's going to be over 40, Brad. GM had continually said the car will go 40 miles in charge depleting mode and another 300 in charge sustaining mode. It's been commonly thought that the car has an 8 gallon fuel tank(GM hasn't officially announced the tank size to keep us guessing about the MPG I'm sure)so that would give it approximately a 37.5mpg figure in CS mode. Unless the tank turns out to be less than 8 gallons, I don't think it's going to hit the 40mpg mark.

· Harrier1970 (not verified) · 1 year ago

Think of it more like this...

40 miles all electric

Then you get 37.5 MPG (for arguments sake) and end up driving 100 miles that trip. You end up with a total of 1.6 gallons used for 100 miles or 62.5 MPG for that trip.

The important thing to remember about this vehicle is that the closer you drive to 40 miles a day (or about 15,000 miles for the year) the less fuel you use and the higher your MPG is going to be.

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

Yes Harrier, the closer you drive to 40 miles per day the less fuel you are going to use. However, the closer you drive to 40 miles per day the bigger argument you can make that the volt is the wrong electric car for you.

The beauty of the volt is that people that frequently drive more than 100 miles per day can still drive an electric car, albeit a hybrid one. If someone who buys a volt drives close to 40 miles per day and rarely uses the CS mode then I would argue that they paid for a lot of equipment that they don't need and now have to service and repair that equipment even though they rarely use it. The long term maintenance on a volt will be very high since it has both an electric powertrain and a complete ICE and exhaust system to maintain. One of the great things about BEV's is that they have very little maintenance and the cost of ownership is low.

· TechExplorer · 1 year ago

I agree with Tom,I'm looking @ the Leaf EV for a Daily commute Vehicle.I drive 60.4 miles daily to work and around town.mostly back roads and some highway.I think the leaf is a great car and i'm on the reservation list.I like the Volt ,but its Price is to high for my budget,and possible low milage on CS and extra Maintenance Costs keep it the the long list of potential Cars.

My concern with the leaf is no charge points @ work or in area and probably none anytime soon,so home charging only option.The possible 2012 Plugin Hybrid Toyota Prius looks great also with reported avg. 80 to 90 MPG on avg. testing.might be a better Fit.I 'm keeping my options open.All potential vehicles in1 to 2 years out.

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

Tech: Have you explored all avenues to charge while at work? Even a 110V charge during an 8 hour work day would make a nice difference. Employers & municipalities are starting to get on board with the EV movement and you may be able to convince someone to install a charge point where you could use it.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Tom, good point. I think we are so focused on the new level 2 charge stations that we often forget that level 1 charging (AKA your regular outlet that's available just about anywhere) can provide an extra 5-8 miles of range per hour of charge. So yes, an 8 hour charge could get you an extra 40 miles of range, minimum. Tech, sounds like you could easily get to work and back if you had access to a regular outlet and worked 8 hours a day. Plus, you'd likely have excess range to spare.

· Scott Z · 1 year ago

I completely agree with Tom's point. Why do so many appear to buy a car based on 5% or less of their usage? The Leaf will do all the work I need a car to do 95% of the time. That other 5% I will do with my Prius or Mini-Van. I know many people only need or can afford one car. That 5% of driving can be done with a rental in those cases. The low cost of maintenance of the Leaf should be a wonder to behold and would easily offset the cost of a rental.

· Bobby (not verified) · 1 year ago

I envision a lot of Leaf drivers stuck on the side of the road and a whole lot of Volt, Prius and Fusion hybird drivers riding by them laughing all the way home. If you think the Volt has question marks, then your head will explode when the Leaf is released with all of its low-tech and questionable technology.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Bobby, really? Firstly, you must have a very base view of humanity if you think the average driver would see a stranded motorist of any kind and "laugh all the way home." If that's your mentality, then you're likely the same kind of person that drove me off the road and flipped my car 3 times leaving me in a crumpled wreck and then drove off never to be seen again several years ago. With such an introduction and insight into your persona, I can't take the rest of your comment seriously... but... the LEAF has "low-tech" and "questionable" technology? Really? Just like that cell phone you have in your pocket, or that computer doohicky you typed your questionable comments on—weird and crazy magical technology, like electric motors and batteries. Yeah, that kind of stuff is way less reliable than the combustion engine with a thousand moving parts all having to be timed perfectly to avoid disaster.

· TechExplorer · 1 year ago

Bobby ,I have a Ford Fusion Hybrid,and the leaf is in many regards has more Technology. My Hybrid is Great ,but still burns fuel,and still needs all the Maintenance of an ICE Vehicle.I'm looking not to replace Hybrid,but add second vehicle for local use.,The Lea, if all data is correct fits the bill perfectly.So Bobby when your @ the Station pumping gas I'll be passing you buy.When your @ the Shop changing your oil I be passing you buy,When your stopped @ the light burning Fuel I'll be next to you counting The Money Im saving !

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

It never ceases to amuse me when I read comments by people that bash BEV's. Of course none of these people have even driven one much less owned one. You can go from site to site and read predictions of legions of EV drivers stranded on the roadside because they weren't capable of properly determining that the car couldn't go as far as they needed to drive that day.

I suppose it's going to happen occasionally, and the first few times it happens you know there will by a traffic helicopter with a live feed, covering it as if it were OJ fleeing the law. However the hysteria will die down once all the positive reviews start flowing and people start talking to their neighbor that has one and he tells them how much he loves it.

People are resistant to change for the most, but luckily there enough people that are willing to try new technologies, to be early adopters and to pave the way for a better future. The societal, economic and environmental benefits of BEV's far outweigh the inconveniences the current cars may present with the limited ranges they have, but even that will fade away quickly as battery technology improves.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Bobby -

I'm not sure I want to be another to take the bait...

I agree with the others that your "vision" is more than a bit silly. I've driven a 100 mile-range EV as our main vehicle for about ten years. It is driven just about everybody by *somebody* in the family. Number of times it has stranded us: Zero. Number of times in those same number of years that our gas car has stranded us: one. And it wasn't from running out of gas, it was from running out of coolant. Did anybody laugh? No.

Which technology in the Leaf is "low tech" and "questionable?" wow.

· Frank the BBB (not verified) · 1 year ago

While electric cars or plug-in hybrids are the way to go as far as primary vehicles go, I still think more people should look into electric bicycles (especially recumbents - more comfort!) as secondary transportation for those shorter trips. They are much more energy efficient (much less weight) than an electric/hybrid car. And since you can pedal them, you don't need license/insurance, and you get exercise!! I have a sub compact car (38MPG hwy), and a tank of gas (10 gal) lasts over 2 months because most of my trips are by either of my 2 electric recumbent bikes.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

@ Frank the BBB,

I'm quite curious to find out why people are so quick to relegate their *main* form of transportation to secondary status. If you ride your bike more than you drive you car, then the CAR is your secondary transportation. Don't short the bicycle! Quite frequently I hear people talk about how a 100 mile EV could be their secondary car. In my household - as in most two-car-where-one-is-an-EV households - we use the EV for about 90% of our car trips, and we use our gasoline car (Prius) for the other 10%. The EV is our PRIMARY car, and the Prius is our secondary car. And beyond that, I ride my (human-powered) bicycle more miles than I drive any car. So really, the EV is our secondary vehicle, while the Prius is our tertiary. My bicycle is most definitely my primary form of transportation.

But oops... we're a bit OT now!

· Frank the BBB (not verified) · 1 year ago

@Darelldd

Yes, my 2 bikes are my main source of transportation, the car is secondary, and I am certainly not shorting the bikes. I was thinking in terms of others who use their cars mostly. The addition of an electric bike would be a valuable addition to their transportation.

· abasile · 1 year ago

E-bikes are a good idea, but I'll probably wait until I get a lot older. :-)

I can average about 18 mph on my road bike on a 22 mile roundtrip which starts from my house at 6100' elevation (on the Tour of CA race route), goes over a 7100' pass, descends to 6800', and returns home the same way. Too bad Lance crashed before he made it here! At least he's promoting the LEAF...

I "need" a LEAF mainly to be able to transport the wife and kids.

· abasile · 1 year ago

Sorry to be off topic as Darell said! The article was about the Volt.

· Alexei (not verified) · 1 year ago

In most part I agree with Tom about Volt not being the best choice of a car for a 40 mile commuter. Plus extra costs of maintaining the ICE hardware just for the sake of an odd 40 pluss mile trip. But having 2 cars in the household, one BEV only and another ICE, is a good formula for a family. But there are a lot of professionals (25 to 35 years of old) how are not in a hurry to have a family. For them having 2 cars (BEV only + ICE only) is more expensive than having one Volt (purchase cost and maintenance).
Besides that, if you live in the area (city or country like UK) where you can have only one parking place near your home, then one Volt can be just the space saving solution that covers 100% of your driving.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

Make sure your AAA card is up-to-date.

When Chevrolet designated the 1.4 engine and went ahead with it is where they made the mistake. They aspired to a car that would have good acceleration and acceptable mileage throughout its range...big mistake.

Had they quickly licensed and adopted an 800 to 1000 cc engine with individual cylindrical rail injected fuel, overhead cams and turbocharging...they would have had an efficient 40 mile electric and an engine that would offer slightly acceptable performance as it fed electricity to the motor. Granted, you might not top that hill at 70 mph but then again GM could have expressly advertised the inherent limitations while emphasizing the overall benefits...after all, it IS an electric folks.

Essentially, the VOLT is an engine driving a generator that drives the motor...lots of losses...there is no way this VOLT will survive in the coming electric revolution. Typical GM bad idea with lots of touting and blather to hide the facts.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

The last week in my life has been rather frentic and I have been driving rather aggressively through the many hills and lonely roads of my neighborhood. Numerous 110 mile roundtrips and 48 mile round trips this past week at 60 and 65 mph yielded 43 mpg...doggone

10.6 gal tank = 456 miles

1994 Geo Metro......CATCH UP DETROIT

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

Ogden Lafaye,
You're missing the point of the Volt. The Electric motor is what moves the car at 70 mph (hopefully more), the ICE just sits there putting out the average required power needed over the whole trip.
In Mountain Mode, you'll probaly start up that hill with at least 30 miles of range in the battery. I don't know of too many (sarcasm) 10% grades for 30 miles across the country. That would be 3 miles elevation or about 15,000 ft elevation from sea-level. Perhaps trying to drive up Pikes Peak at 70 mph (it has been done) would exhaust the battery and ICE supplement by the top but I doubt it.
In normal driving you would have the full EV power (and that can be a lot) at the touch of your throttle (the pedal formerly called 'gas pedal') everywhere you went, even with about a 50 hp ICE.

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

This week in my life has been rather frentic too and I have been driving rather aggressively throught the many mountains, lonely roads, and harried freeways of my neighborhood. Numerous 100 mile round trips and a couple of 140 mile round trips this past week at 75 - 90 mph (yeah, lead foot since we were late for an appointment on the other side of town because a brush fire blocked the shortest route) yielded ZERO gallons of anything used ... oilgone.
0 gal tank = 400 miles
Solar array during the past 4 days yielded 65 kWhrs. I guess we dipped into the grid a bit but not too deeply.

2010 Tesla ...... CATCH UP ANYONE!
Now we've just got to get the prices down on these awesome EVs.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

ex-EV1 driver...The ICE has nothing to do with driving the wheels...it drives the generator and if the generator output is charging the batteries and not going to the motor then we have a fourth element for losses. If the input from those 50 horses is 35 KW just what output is expected of the batteries?

Better the ICE drove a generator that directly drove the motor.

GM is going to have a lot of trouble on their hands and they realize it.

I have a funny feeling that the ICE is going to be running often in the VOLT. Final details/performance/mileage/configuration of modes HAS NOT been released by GM and I believe it is because they haven't a viable automobile.

1300 days and counting

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Ogden,

If I may be so bold - I believe that ex-EV1 fullly understands that the ICE doesn't drive the wheels directly. Additionally, I'll bet he also knows that the ICE is capable of driving the generator that directly drives the motor (bypassing the battey charge losses). This, I believe, is your "better case" above. A better case that will exist with the Volt system as I understand it.

Your opinion that the Volt will be an abject failure is noted.

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

@darelldd,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd like to add that taking battery charging losses out of the circuit is a simple matter of wiring. When the ICE+generator are running, the majority of the current into the electric motor comes directly from the ICE+generator with current for surge coming out of the battery. When the ICE+generator is creating more current than the motor needs, the extra goes into the battery.
If the ICE+generator are sized to meet a little more than the average power required to drive (maybe 30 to 40 kW for a small to midsized car) then it should be running most of the time in charge sustaining or mountain modes.
Early reports from folks I trust (my wife) are that the Volt's performance is good but not quite to Tesla levels :-)
I, personally, don't care what the ICE mpg are. If they are better than my 18 mpg, 270 mile range SUV, this car will be the one we pull from the stable for long-distance fair weather road trips.
Hopefully, GM will actually start selling these cars soon so we can quit debating and meet at the track to find out the truth. I'm hoping it is more like 90 days before Volt rubber is on the road in private hands. We know that the production line is running now!

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Ex-EV1 -

Yup! And of course this is how the Prius has handled this situation for quite some years. So while the systems ARE quite different, GM isn't breaking any new ground in going directly from generator to drive motor when (and to what degree) it makes the most sense. You explained it concisely.

· Donovan Moser (not verified) · 1 year ago

I am really looking forward to trying the Transit Connect Electric. super all around utility.

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

@ Donovan,
I agree the Transit Connect Electric is sort of a dark horse. It will be interesting to see how it fares. I do wish it sounded like it was going to have more range though.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

I admit, ex-EV1 driver has a good grip on the essentials but I don't believe all of you folks have a good grip on the overall picture. Taken apart by systems, the VOLT sounds great, almost like a perpetual motion machine...I can see the foot pedals now.

The reality is a car that is expensive, not very economical, a new concept, made by a company famous for sketchy quality and a car coming into a market already occupied by better performing, cheaper offerings.

Had GM focused on an EV offering, it would have been in its second year of sales and probably offering a 150 mile range this year, all for $25,000 or less.

No, they need an EDSEL and they need to sell a few million more underwhelming vehicles to litter the landscape. This should firmly fix their incompetent, lackluster image before they go into bankruptcy once again.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

"GM Sees Different Engine as Key to Next Gen Chevy Volt Fuel Economy Gains"

That says it all....GM admits it has made a mistake
The VOLT doesn't get good fuel mileage
The present engine was a bad decision
The have been looking for the key

· erprange (not verified) · 1 year ago

I'm just beyond excited that we're even having this debate. The fact that there are rapidly increasing options in the electric car field has (for me anyways) been something long waited for.

I have no doubt that the Volt, Leaf, and eventually plug in hybrid will all be advances in the right direction and I am sure that every single one of those will find areas to improve (both in cost and performance) as additional models come out (how is this different from any other ICE car?)

Even if EV's are not widely accepted for some time, clearly there is an ever increasing base (even if it is still the minority) that is very excited about these cars. Hey its not like the Prius started out much better. I guess I'd need to research more, but I do seem to remember similar complaints about cost and how unlikely it was to catch on or ever make Toyota a profit. Now where I live (near DC) the Prius might just be one of the most common vehicles on the road.

Back to the 1994 Geo Metro Comment - Thought I read that it would be hard to replicate that kind of MPG these days in a car like that because of mandatory safety requirements that did not exist in 94 and add enough weight to reduce fuel economy. Can anyone back this up or refute it?

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Erprange -

Yes... many will speak of what great gas mileage the little cars of yesteryear were getting. Mileage is only one part of the equation. And if you compare what a Prius offers the consumer - in size, power, comfort, convenience features - as compared to a Metro... well, there really is no comparison. And the Prius is so much cleaner to operate than the Metro, even if it doesn't get quite the fuel economy. Yes, the latest pollution and safety requirements all add weight, expense and complexity.

· Alan (not verified) · 1 year ago

"Tony Posawatz, the Volt Line Director at GM, admits that they didn't initially spend a lot of resources on the extended-range feature of the first generation Volt, but ...."

Think this putz will get a golden handshake and a few million dollars in stock options. This is just pathetic, but I guess predictable.

Anyone see the episode on Top Gear where they create an electric car, but its range is horrible, so they put a diesel generator in the back seat to charge the batteries!!! - Now that was funny... this is not !

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

Alan,
I have to respectfully disagree here. The extended-range feature won't be used much. If folks want to burn a lot of gasoline, they'll buy a pure ICE or a legacy hybrid. GM should have focused on the electric drivetrain first. They can clean up the gas guzzling part if that becomes necessary based on customer experience.

Why do I keep finding myself defending GM? I hate them. Maybe they actually are doing something right for a change.
Top Gear's EV-hating dinosaurs will become the "flat earth society" as soon as real people start to have experience with real EVs so their staged EV failures will be seen as what they really are.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

darelldd - "Yes, the latest pollution and safety requirements all add weight, expense and complexity."

So? Complexity won't affect mileage

Pollution and safety requirements? You seem to not know that this 58 mpg EPA rated Geo Metro in 1989 had two valves per cylinder, throttle body injection and a rather high friction transmission, not to mention old fashioned belt driven accessories. With the vast improvements in mileage technology in the past 21 years, this same car would probably get 80 mpg easily...but then we have to add on lets say 300 lbs. for safety improvements...the improved engine will certainly pass all pollution requirements.

So now we have a 3 cylinder engine with twin overhead cams, one belt, 4 valves per cylinder, direct injection and turbocharging not to mention dozens of little updated touches. I wager it will STILL get 58 mpg., if not better, and could certainly be built to comply with all laws extant. At 1565 lbs. we now have 1800+ lbs...thats a LIGHT car in this day and age and 997 cc's of modern technology can handle the load...If Suzuki can build them, GM can build them.

Your arguments never fail to leave out pertinent data. A river of negativite results will overwhelm you folks and you will eventually say that you knew all along that the VOLT was a compromise, an expensive compromise...and the excuses will continue long after the VOLT is history.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

> Your arguments never fail to leave out pertinent data.

I have no argument. I'm just being part of the discussion, and offering what I know to be true. I have no sinister agenda here, as seems to be implied. I try not to include in my posts data that does not exist.

Darell -
EVnut.com

· darelldd · 1 year ago

> Why do I keep finding myself defending GM?

Isn't it funny in an odd way? I find myself doing the same thing. Crazy. Most of the world just assumes that I hate GM because they took away my EV1. I actually don't hate them. Hate involves way too much emotion. I think GM has been stupid. Near-sighted. Selfish. Backwards. A day late and a dollar short (now our dollars). But really, I don't hate them. I'd quite like it if they did something really, really well for a change.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Ogden, I have to say something here—some general constructive criticism—and I hope you can take it the right way...

Before you came along, all of the discussions on PluginCars.com were very much based in a mutual desire to provide points and counterpoints without accusation. Certainly we were having our heated discussions, but there was never a sense that we had somebody who was completely set in their ways and not open to discussion and compromise. I haven't once seen you write a comment that truly compliments somebody else for their reasoning skills and I've seen you more than once resort to baseless accusations and derogations to belittle the people you are debating with.

To be honest, your obsessive commentary with a clear and utter distaste for GM and all those that may have anything good to say about them is getting old and it's starting to hurt the otherwise well-rounded discussion here at PluginCars.com. As Darell and ex-EV1 have said, I don't like being put in a position to defend GM, so take what I'm saying more as a defense of logic and balance.

You know, it's funny, you've said so much about how you don't like the GM agenda and that you think there are "GM plants" and spies all over the place and how they are always spewing misinformation and glorified news about what you perceive to be a failed product (the Volt) before it even reaches the gate. But after reading most of the dozens of comments you've now left all over PluginCars.com, I'd say that you more fit the bill of somebody who'd been planted by a competitor to instill fears and doubt about the Volt than any of the people you've accused of being spies for GM.

So, please, take this criticism to heart. I don't actually think you're a spy for a competitor—as I've said before, I don't really believe in conspiracies—but I do think you'll get a much better reception and people will take you more seriously if you lighten up and maintain an open mind. Also, pointing out when people have good points and accepting it as such in your own mind helps to build bridges to a common viewpoint.

· Ty Coon (not verified) · 1 year ago

Nick;
Ever read "Only The Paranoid Survive" ?

"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you".

· Jim Reed (not verified) · 1 year ago

Thank you Nick for stepping in and trying to bring civility back to the discussion.

I swore I would never buy another GM product after my experience with their 2nd generation Olds diesel wagon. As an EV club member I was really hoping the EV-1 would become available but another GM disappointment. However, I would like to see GM succeed with the Volt. It is clear that they had to compromise on the engine because they were in the middle of bankruptcy when they finally had to freeze the design. I am wondering if the European version - Ampere was going to use the same engine or had a more efficient one. Hopefully, a second generation will come very quickly so they can come close to the expectations they have set.

I have a 2004 Prius with 195k miles and a 2002 CVT Insight with 125k miles. I typically get 50 mpg out of either car. I have never had a tank below 40 mpg and only one that low. My wife will drive either and will average 42 mpg but has been as low as 32 mpg in the Prius. As we discuss the Volt mileage in the extended range mode, driving techniques are going to make a difference and I hope the early adopters that can finesse the throttle are able to drown out the people that don't get the mileage advertised. I read a lot of complaints about Prius mileage and found them incredible until my wife and I switched cars when our granddaughter became a regular rider with her. I realized it wasn't the car but the driver that made the difference in the mileage.

It will be interesting to see what mileage the Fisker will get in comparison to the Volt as I think they are both taking a similar approach in drivetrain design. It looks like the Fisker will be heavier and more spacious than the Volt so the comparison may not be good. Here's to the success of all the entrants in the PEV and BEV competition.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Jim -

You make a great point about driver differences. Isn't it too bad that nobody would even consider driver education to improve efficiency, fuel consumption, pollution, etc? Nothing new needs to be invented. Production costs are almost zero. It would be a learning experience like any other... and we'd all benefit. But no. We need technology to save us from ourselves. Ug.

Imagine that: Learning how to drive better, instead of just handing out licenses to anybody who can stop at stop signs, and park at the curb without harming the instructor.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Darell, to their credit, the Auto Alliance has attempted to do some driver education through the EcoDriving program... granted, the attempt has been kind of half-hearted, but at least they were willing to spend some money on the effort. In the end, I don't think it took off because most people are unwilling to actually follow through with the habitual changes new driving styles require—even though most people would likely say they support such efforts. And then we also had the concerted political effort during the last election to say that doing things like filling your tires to the proper level and avoiding jackrabbit starts was something that only sissies did.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Nick -

Wow. First I'd even heard of the EcoDriving program. Which, of course, doesn't bode well for it in the first place! Mostly it is the driving public that I was meaning with my "nobody" comment. We don't want to be educated. We just want "somebody" to make us safe.

But, as usual, I'm a bit off track here...

On-topic: I'm a bit surprised at how much heat GM is taking specifically for saying that they're seriously looking into increasing the FE of the VOLT in future generations. No good deed goes unpunished!

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

I am all for the Chevrolet CRUZE...if it gets 40 mpg, I assume a consistent driver will do so? I like the VW TDI vehicles. I think TESLA is way ahead of the crowd and offers a viable alternative to ICE-powered vehicles. The FIESTA by Ford is an established mileage winner worldwide. The luxury large car hybrids are a bit of shuck-and-jive, just like the VOLT was a publicity stunt while GM was suffering financial woes.

As to EV (electric vehicles) I am in full support. In the meantime I drive the most fuel efficient ICE vehicle available.

Tom and darelldd have a lot of interesting things to say and quite a bit of knowledge but they do hold some in abeyance in order to cast a better light on their preferences.

I am not right all the time but I think I am...that defines most of us here.

I got out of college and immediately started designing some of the first ATV's used in industry..."marsh buggies" was the term back then. Ocean going COMMERCIAL ships are the largest machinery made and they MUST be powered by the most efficient motive power available...you may bring up studies of and applications related to NAVY ships, but fact of the matter is: ICE powered (diesel, 2 cycle, turbo, rail injected etc etc) ships are the cheapest. It only stands to reason that the same applies to the automotive field.

Then along came the re-birth of all electric vehicles, and yes, they are much better. They are cheaper since power from coal and hydro is extremely cheap compared to gasoline powered vehicles. The electric vehicle industry is sorting itself out and we need to encourage every idea, all research and invest in this future even if it costs more at first than the cost of traditional ICE vehicles. It is without doubt the environment and the health of everyone on the planet that is at stake.

However, I will not encourage anyone to buy vehicles whose technology has been proven ineffective, a technology that leads nowhere and 250 mpg carburetors. The flim flam artists and their "secret" or "revolutionary" $19.95 offerings are to be derided and exposed wherever they pop up their heads...Anyone I have ever talked to with my engineering experience/background agrees with me: The engineering of the VOLT is a sham. The name may remain but the engineering must go...there are much better ideas on the horizon.

I posted an "intermittent electrical grid" solution to basic transportation on another blog here at Plugincars.com and it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle (or I fouled the posting process) If you have seen it, please give me a website address. I am curious to if any of you folks have considered an intermittent under-pavement electrical induction grid for electric cars. A grid that fed main arteries, highways and main streets throughout America? If it also supplied charging features to an EV with a minimum ranged battery, the grid would only be necessary on main streets. A seamless switch to battery power would be adequate for drives up dead end roads, or over to the country golf course, in resdential areas etc etc. Highways would of course need a grid but interchanges, off ramps and rest areas wouldn't.

This grid would be the main motive power for America and possibly cheaper than the sewer installations and maintenance common to every community. It could power everything; trucks, cars, golf carts, taxis...but no boats of course...Laughter.

An intermittent power input supplemented by battery on-board...bottom line. IDEAS?

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

@Ogden Lafaye,
Regarding your suggestion of burying an inductive 'grid' under the streets: I do recall something like that somewhere a while ago. I mentioned the attraction I felt in the EV1 days to rig a couple of fiberglass poles to my EV1 so I could charge of of the trolley bus wires overhead in San Francisco. My concern with in-street induction is that there is a lot of loss in induction as the distance between transmitter and reciever are separated. There can also be problems with the very strong magnetic fields that would be required to provide 100 kW or more, ranging from erasing credit cards to upsetting pacemakers. I think its a good idea but am not convinced that it is practical. If you are interested, you might want to build a small-scale model like a slot-car to verify the concept.
I'm still not clear on why you are so vehemently against the Serial Hybrid aka PHEV aka EREV like the Volt. I had to go 150 miles into the desert for work today. Since the 300 mile round trip greatly exceeds my Tesla's 200 mile range (and I had to carry a lot of equipment with me a drive on dirt roads) I chose to take a company truck instead. It just seems like it would be nice to be able to take the Tesla on trips like this, if I could hitch up a trailer with an ICE generator to help extend the range. We actually had a 6.5 kW portable gasoline generator with us where we were working and it would have served quite nicely to give me the necessary 15 miles/hour to let me get out there and home.
The idea seems sound, I don't know why you think the Volt can't do just this.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

Who wants to take a chance they can't get their BEV back home because they get stuck in traffic, have to take a detour, or other unknown and don't have the electrical charge to get back home. How many tows at a $100.00 plus and the most precious commodity you have your time would you have to lose to wish you had gotten the Volt instead? My commute to work is just over 20 miles each way. While a BEV could handle this it wouldn't leave me the option to go far out of my way should I need to visit my parents, pick-up my son at the local college he goes to, or other things that happen in life. I would have to go home 20 miles change cars or hunt down my wife to get the other car then take care of the situation. Many of you are saying, well you will have another 60 miles to take care of the situation in the LEAF. From everything I've read the 100 miles would be in perfect condtions in a flat state like Florida. I live in a area with lots of changes in elevations. The LEAF wouldn't get the 100 miles... I would be lucky to get 60. I'll go with the Volt for 36 months and look at the options again after that.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

> Who wants to take a chance they can't get their BEV back home because they get stuck in traffic, have to take a detour, or other unknown and don't have the electrical charge to get back home. <

Me. I've been taking that scary chance for 10 years now. In any give ten years of gasoline car driving, I've had more automobile "issues" that have prevented me from getting where I want to be - than I've had in my 10 years of EV driving. Number of EV tows in over 100,000 EV miles? Zero. Nuber of tows for my gas cars? More than zero. But that's only one data point... even if it is very personal, and first-person!

Please not that your fear of not making it home because you are "stuck in traffic" is a common worry that is not based on anything relevant. Congested traffic *increases* EV range.

It is easy to come up with reasons that an EV won't work. The fun part is finding ways that it WILL work.

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

"Who wants to take a chance they can't get their BEV back home because they get stuck in traffic, have to take a detour, or other unknown and don't have the electrical charge to get back home"

One thing is for sure, this was not written by somebody that has actually lived with a production EV. As Darell pointed out, getting stuck in traffic isn't a bad thing for you range. EV's love slow, stop & go driving and you will improve your range by driving like this. I've had lots of detours driving my EV and at most it may add a couple miles (usually less than that) and a couple miles would rarely ever leave you short unless it happened on a day that you were already driving much further than you had planned.

A 100 mile EV isn't for everyone, most everyone here would agree, but if you talk to anyone with real life EV experience they will tell you they don't have a problem with the things mentioned above. Again, as Darell pointed out, it's always easy to come up with reasons and what-ifs why an EV wouldn't work for you, but then when you have one you realize you were worrying about those hypothetical situations for nothing and it's very easy and enjoyable to drive one.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

Well, the "grid" idea would be intermittent and a full 240 volt charge every time you stop might make the grade. An automatic lowering and raising of a charge pickup apparatus would be a simple construct. On highways there would be other problems. I can't see that stopping every now and then for a quick 10 minute charge wouldn't eventually be an accepted norm.

The whole point here is to discuss various ideas and I am certainly enjoying the exchange.

The Volt is simply an engineering solution fraught with losses in the transfers and changes needed to get the power to the wheels.

An example: The propeller wind mills so popular now are not popular because they are efficient and well designed. They are popular because the design and installation is being subsidized by the US government. These "pork barrel" windmills never return the initial investment and life-long maintenance costs. They are fraught with problems and justifiably so.

However, a vertical, axial design with one shaft, no transmission and a "cage" type vertical impeller is inexpensive, easy to install and will run and run far past the "breakeven" point. The generator and controls can be serviced at ground level and the cage is virtually indestructible. An uncouple and straight up lift, hands you the impeller in moments....nothing has to be laid down in some special position. The cage impeller is simple and requires no complicated curved or fragile components. The shaft has stable bearings and a bottom thrust bearing...everything is on one shaft.

Very common in China...see stock symbol PFGY

· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago

@Ogden Lafaye,
A lot of my friends who are aerodynamics and mechanical geniuses would disagree with your assessment of which windmill design is better. Your example of a design that may be common in China does little to convince me of which design is done because of government subsidy. Everything in China is a government subsidy. That's why they call it Communism.

· Ogden Lafaye (not verified) · 1 year ago

ex-EV1...well, YES. However, the Chinese aren't stupid and they aren't lining the pockets of cronies.

I don't think there are any mechanical engineers out there that will claim a 90 degree drive through a gearbox is less complicated or more efficient than a single shaft, direct drive arrangement...sorry. However there are a lot of people that might have ulterior motives for agreeing with you?

China will put in a high speed rail system and it will have the very latest in engineering and the least pork fat, and it will be done in record time...ditto roadway infrastructure and just about any mega project they begin. Their corruption is on and of a different order...I tried to GIVE them a complete ice cream factory I owned and they refused it. The string was hiring me to supervise the transfer...no no no, we have people that will do it, yet they still wanted the factory.

I broke up the equipment and hauled it to the dump.

They are the world's creditor...that alone should wake you folks up.

Just watch them leap and bound to an electric car future that is far far ahead of America...and will stay there.

PluginCars

Chevy Volt

GM Sees Different Engine as Key to Next Gen Chevy Volt Fuel Economy Gains

Comments

Add comment

All Discussions

Does EV Quick-Charging By the Minute Make Sense?

In Veiled Sales Pitch, A123 Warns about Dangers of EV Quick Charging

The Race to Lock Down Electric Car Charging Real Estate

Chasing an Elusive Next Generation Battery to Rival Gasoline in Energy Density

Real Electric Car Battery Costs Remain Elusive

Cars.com Lists Chevy Volt as One of "Top 10 Under-Appreciated Cars and Trucks"

Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid is Third Quickest Selling Vehicle in US

Ford Focus Electric Rollout Continues to Crawl

What is the True Range of an Electric Car? The Mini E Experience Leaves Many Questions

Tesla Model S Range Exceeds Even Tesla's Expecations