Indyflick: I was wondering about that too. Maybe they just didn't have any in the area. I have still yet to see one in NY/NJ other than the one that Carlos Ghosn came to Revenge of the Electric Car in. The Coda does look plain, but it does come with the goods. A large 36kWH battery, active thermal management, 6.6kWh charging and better range than anything that isn't called Tesla.
GE EV Experience Tour Visits New York
I spent the afternoon today the Citi Field in Flushing, NY, home of the New York Mets. While I am a Mets fan (unfortunately), I wasn’t there today to watch a game, I was there for GE’s New York EV Experience Tour.
The day started off with a panel discussion called “Building an EV Ecosystem” which was followed by a Q&A session. The panel consisted of Dan Frodi, chief strategy and product development leader for GE; Scott Saffian, EV platform Leader for GE; John Shipman, department manager of electric vehicles for Con Edison; and Ari Kahn, electric vehicle policy analyst, New York City sustainability office.
The panel mainly focused on infrastructure issues and solutions, and I was happy to hear that companies like GE are working closely with the utilities (Con Edison) as well as city representatives to try to identify and solve the potential problems before we have widespread EV deployment.
When it came time for the Q&A, I was the third person to take the microphone. However my one question turned into a series of back and forth questions and I ended taking up so much time that they had to end the Q&A once I was done. I wasn’t forcing more questions on them. They seemed fascinated that they had someone there that actually had an electric car and could contribute real life problems and infrastructure advice. I was actually very surprised when I first took the mic and introduced myself as one of the panel members who said “You’re the guy with the blog, right?” When I said yes, I do maintain a blog about my experiences he said that he frequently visits it and it is very informative.
After I stepped down and returned to the audience, they ended the Q&A and we took a short refreshment break. I had a line of people waiting to give me their business card and chat for a bit. Most of them told me they haven’t had the opportunity to really talk with someone than has an electric car and wanted to pick my brain on some ideas.
Then there were two workshops: “EV Charging Products and Installation, and “The Business Case for Electric Vehicles.” I listened to a little of both of them, but I am already well aware of most of what was discussed. It was more geared for people without much EV knowledge.
The final part of the day was the EV Ride & Drive. They had a Mitsubishi i, a Chevy Volt, a Think City, a Smart ED, a Ford Transit Connect Electric and two electric trucks—one was made by Smith, but I didn’t get the maker of the other truck. They had a very large track set up for test drives around the empty parking lot, much bigger than other test drive tracks that I have seen in the past. There was also a Coda Sedan there, but just for display.
One of the GE reps asked me if I would bring my MINI-E over to the test drive area to display it and I obliged. My EF-OPEC license plate was a huge hit and many people were taking pictures of it. They had a tent set up with food and just about everyone was taking test drives and I was answering questions about the MINI-E and upcoming BMW ActiveE.
One of the highlights for me was getting a chance to take a good look at a Coda, and speak with Aaron Cohen the company's marketing director. I know they face a lot of challenges, but I really hope Coda makes it. While the car isn’t awe-inspiring to look at, it isn’t ugly by any means. I think the worst thing you can really call it is just plain. The price is another issue and at $44,900 it’s a tough sell when you figure it’s $12,000 more than a LEAF. However as an EV, it has a lot of what I want to see, like active thermal management, 6.6kWh charging and a nice big 36 kWh pack capable of taking the car 130-150 miles per charge and all but guaranteeing 100 miles per charge in even the worst conditions—their claim—which is probably 30-40 percent further than the LEAF.
I was told they are expecting to see an EPA rating of about 110 miles per charge. If that is the case, then you can pretty much be assured it will go 100 miles per charge under any driving conditions. To me, it is a more complete EV than either the LEAF or the Focus EV and if this car had a Nissan or Ford name plate on it, people would be lining up for them.
Overall it was a great afternoon. I got to see a bunch of EVs, talk with some industry leaders and share my EV experiences with a lot of people that were very anxious to hear what I had to say. Things are really beginning to happen!
About the author
Tom recently completed his 2 1/2 year stint in BMW's MINI-E trial lease program. He was the first retail customer of a BMW ActiveE and was presented the keys to the car by BMW North American President, Ludwig Willisch on January 13th, 2012. The ActiveE is currently his primary daily-driving car.
Tom is an passionate EV advocate as well as a proponent of US energy independence. Tom ...
Comments
· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago
· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago
Hey . . . Vanilla is good! 100 mile plus range? Big battery with thermal management? Quick charging port? Who cares if the Coda looks too much like a particular Japanese or American car? It looks fine to me. I'd even keep the yellow paint (French Vanilla?) and ask for a hatchback wagon version. $44,900? That's the only deal killer on this one.
· Scott Z · 1 year ago
I too like the stats of the Coda but I for one really do not want to buy a car from China. I already am forced to buy so many product from there so the last thing I want is a car from China. When I purchase something from Japan or South Korean I know they at least have a decent form of government. I am not a big anti China person but I rather give countries that treat their people like garbage less money. That is why I want an EV. I hate my money going to countries that I feel are no good(can you spell OPEC)! Of course I like clean air too!
· Mr. Fusion · 1 year ago
45 grand...LOL.
· Schanie · 1 year ago
I won't buy a Chinese car. If American companies want to sell cars there they have to partner with a Chinese company and share intellectual property with them. I actually check everything I buy to see if I can buy local, American or at least from a nation truly friendly to the US.
· indyflick · 1 year ago
@Benjamin Nead, the Coda doesn't have a quick charging port. Quick charging (Level 3) is 480V DC. The LEAF in SL trim does include a fast charging port. So a LEAF can charge from flat to 80% in under 1/2 hour with quick charging. The Coda does have a 6.6kWh charger whereas a LEAF has a 3.3kWh charger. The difference being when you plug a LEAF in at night, when you wake up it's fully charged. Whereas when you plug a Coda in at night, when you wake up it's fully charged. But remember you pay more for a 6.6kWh charger. So you'll need to weigh the trade off there.
· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago
Sure, there is a part of me who has to ask how well the factory workers who made this car are treated. You have to ask that about anything that is made in China . . . and so much is made there these days. Even a car with an American, Japanese or Korean nameplate on it is almost surely going to have quite a few components made in China. Same with the computer I'm typing this on and those lawn chairs out in my back yard. Welcome - for better or worse - to the world of globalization.
My enthusiasm for the Coda is based around the fact that it appears to be a very basic "bread and butter" sort of EV. I prefer the styling to, say, the Volt and the Leaf. That range is addressed by purely electrical means (bigger battery and not ICE) is a plus in my book.
Also, indyflick, I think you're trying to tell me that there is no appreciable difference in charging times between a 3.3kWh and a 6.6kWh charger? Please explain.
· regman · 1 year ago
110 miles range seams a little low to me for a 36 kWH battery. With that size battery, they sould be getting > 130 miles.
· Schanie · 1 year ago
Btw, these are no accidental look-alikes. Chinese companies intentionally copy the cars. It's a dealer option add-on to replace the Chinese decals/ornaments with the originally copied company markings, at around $200.
Some other Chinese car copies:
http://gemssty.com/2006/10/29/top-10-copycat-cars/
· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago
Regman: I was told they are routinely getting 140-150 miles per charge in everyday driving. They are expecting an EPA rating of 110 miles per charge because of how the EPA rates EV range. For example the EPA established a range of 73 miles per charge for the LEAF, which in most cases will go further than that.
Indyflick: It all depends on how you use your EV. 3.3kWh charging will work fine for some, but not for others and was the primary reason a canceled my reservation on the LEAF. After charging at 12kWh for two years on the MINI-E, I have become very used to plugging in for an hour and getting 30-40 miles of range. Nissan knows they made a mistake with this, I have spoken to numerous Nissan reps and always bring it up. They almost always look down and say "Yeah, in hindsight we should have done that differently, but don't worry it's being corrected" I'm betting you'll see 6.6kWh charging on the LEAF by the time it's available in all 50 states
· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago
"Btw, these are no accidental look-alikes. Chinese companies
intentionally copy the cars. It's a dealer option add-on to replace
the Chinese decals/ornaments with the originally copied company
markings, at around $200 . . . "
I know - and appreciate - what you're saying, Shanie. The Japanese used to do exactly the same thing when they were "up and comers" some decades ago and, as recently as the early 1990s, participated in trade practices that forced many US firms into bankruptcy.
Now, nobody seems to complain any longer when the label says "Made in Japan."
In a few years it will be China that is acknowledged as the standard bearer of quality manufacturing and - lets only hope - a place where their factory worker gets treated more fairly than today. It will be some less developed nation to their west who will be the new copy-cat pretender and workforce exploiter. I've often joked that my next Blu-Ray player will probably be built in Uzbekistan.
Recently, I've been buying a lot of my electric model airplane doo-dats directly from a Hong Kong retailer. Prices for the same Chinese-made stuff, rebranded and sold by US retailers, is phenomenally less expensive and the quality seems every bit as good. One has to deal with a Chinese- based retailer a bit differently than a US-based one. But I figure I should get used how to do it . . . until the Uzbekistanis start making and selling their own model airplane gear. :-)
· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago
>In a few years it will be China that is acknowledged as the standard bearer of quality manufacturing<
I'm not so sure about that one Benjamin. I know many people in manufacturing that don't share that opinion. They are getting better, but I think they are still a way off from being the standard for quality manufacturing.
· indyflick · 1 year ago
@Tom Moloughney, my LEAF (3.3kWh charger) begins charging at midnight every night and is typically complete in less than four hours. I only charge to 80% because I'm like most Americans and drive 35 to 45 miles a day, So 80% charge is plenty and will extend the life of the pack. With a 6.6kWh charger it would finish in a couple of hours. So what? I'm still asleep. What about for longer hauls. Well here again 6.6kWh charger isn't the right solution. I have a quick charger to go from flat to 80% is 1/2 hour. It would take a 6.6kWh charger three hours to do that.
So to recap, both a 3.3kWh or 6.6kWh charger can charge my LEAF over night while I'm asleep. My quick charger will allow me to commute between metro areas when I need to (and once public quick chargers are in place) but a 6.6kWh charger can't (unless I want to stand around for three hours). So why would I want a 6.6kWh charger? It seems rather useless to me.
· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago
Indy: I never said YOU should want a 6.6kWh charging. If you read my comment I said that will work fine for some people, and you obviously fit nicely in that group if you drive 35 to 45 miles per day. It won't work for me though and I would absolutely never buy a BEV that could only charge at that rate. I would consider a plug in hybrid that could only charge at that rate though as it's not essential to have the battery charge quickly because you could still drive the car.
I obviously drive more than you do so I need(want) the car to charge quicker. In my daily work day, I drive 33 miles to my job and after about two hours or so I head out to the road and run errands. Sometimes I drive as much as 75 or 85 miles and I then return back to my job and work the rest of the day before I drive my 33 miles back home. I can easily accomplish that with 6.6kWh charging, but would struggle with 3.3kWh.
There is no down side to having 6.6kWh charging installed on the car, it only makes the car more versatile and every major car manufacturer will have at least that level installed on their electric cars as standard including Nissan on the LEAF very soon. The cost is negligible(probably $100 more).
As I said above, I'm going to miss charging at 12kWh when I get the BMW ActiveE in the fall. It charges at 7.7kWh which is what I believe all future BMW's EV's will charge at.
· KeiJidosha · 1 year ago
@ Indyflick, Like Tom, I canceled my LEAF order because of the slow 3.3kW charger. 10% of my trips and 20% of my total EV miles (36k) required public opportunity charging. Why regress?
As for Quick Charge, there are currently no Quick Charge sites in California that work, and no new installations planned. Meanwhile, the CHAdeMO standard is in question due to SAE. And the business model will likely yield a price that is > $1 per minute to charge. What is the demand for a $30 quick charge to go ~80 miles?
Pending the uncertain arrival, density, and price of QC, 6.6kW charging increases the utility of electric vehicles.
· Benjamin Nead · 1 year ago
I dunno, Tom. You said it as well as anyone when you stated " . . . it is a more complete EV than either the LEAF or the Focus EV and if this car had a Nissan or Ford name plate on it, people would be lining up for them." Give them a little time and let one or a couple of their brands become more of household names. This is exactly where the other Pacific Rim manufacturing industries were not too long ago. Come to think of it, the European powers were writing off the US in the mid 19th century for shoddy workmanship and lack of originality in much the same way as we talk disparagingly about China today.
I see where you are wanting to define a 6.6kWh charger as a sort of a desperate middle, indyflick, but I can personally see where a 3 hour charge to get me up and running again would be very beneficial, while an 8 hour holdover would essentially end up being a lost day. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
· indyflick · 1 year ago
The stats I've read state that 72% of Americans drive less than 50 miles a day, I'm clearly not the exception. So 3.3kW charging is fine for that large segment. Also, I see a couple of real disadvantages with 6.6kW charging. It cost more and it puts more stress on the grid over a shorter period of time than would otherwise be necessary. If you need a quick charge then use a quick charge, 6.6kW isn't a quick charge.
I was reading about BRUSA EV chargers. Not sure if they are an exception, but they build their 6.6kW chargers from two 3.3kW chargers. So their costs are almost double. So I suspect a 6.6kW charger would be far more than an extra $100, but probably less than a double the 3.3kW costs.
· jerry (not verified) · 1 year ago
Auto makers will be desigining chargers in house and not looking at some third party supplier like BRUSA. The cost increase from 3.3 to 6.6 would not be much at all and definitely isn't the reason why nissan well with 3.3 for their early models. It had more to do with japanese grid infrastructure. I don't think will see very many 3.3 chargers on future evs as they will almost certainly be at least 6.6kWh. Nissan has gotten a lot of negative feedback over this issue already and has all but publicly conceded that it was a mistake
· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago
Kiejidosha: Are you going to the California ActiveE preview for current MINI-E lessees? I think it's at the end of the month, correct?
· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago
@Indyflick,
There is no reason that a 6.6 kW charging station has to cost twice as much as a 3.3 kW charging station except for the 'supersized' marketing phenomena (ie it may be easier to get people to pay more if it sounds like they are getting more). The copper may need to be a slightly larger gauge but all manufacturing and shipping costs are the same. 3.3 kW is definitely a step backwards.
The other downside I see to pathetically slow charging is that it ensures that all EVs must spend most of the night charging. This will not allow the Smart Grid to be very effective since EV charging becomes a mandatory load that can't be shut down to deal with surges.
The other place that 3.3 kW is a problem is with workplace charging. Higher charging rates will ensure that most people charging will be fully charged before the peak air conditioning loads come on in the afternoon. EVs charging at 3.3 kW are likely to be charging for most of the day. It will also be possible for multiple employees to share a 6 kW or higher charger by swapping out during the day while a 3.3 kW vehicle will hog the early, limited infrastructure all day. I'm seeing this at work already. We only have 2 dedicated charging stations, yet there are 2 employees at my site, the company president, and a mini-E driver at a different site, 50 miles away who drive EVs today. We're expecting another batch of Leaf drivers within the next few months too. The company president and the Mini-E driver both must charge at my office in order to make it from home, to the other office, to ours and back. 3.3 kW charging is such the the company president absolutely must have the J1772 charging station for his Leaf. The 2 Teslas and the Mini-E, then must share the NEMA 14-50 outlet (up to 8 kW - which our cars all support). Fortunately, we can all charge at 8 kW so we can get our cars charged during the day when we need to. When we get more Leafs, with their pathetic 3.3 kW charging, we're going to have a problem until we can get more charging stations installed. Additionally, at 3.3 kW, the folks from the other office have to spend quite a bit of time before they can get enough charge to run around.
Essentially, 3.3 kW is not fast enough to enable "opportunity charging" only "scheduled charging".
· Michael · 1 year ago
@Schanie,
The link on the copy cat cars is a classic!
· abasile · 1 year ago
Opportunity charging at a rate faster than 3.8 kW (the actual rate at which the LEAF charges) would be very nice since L2 chargers will tend to be far more prevalent than DC fast chargers. While we are hoping to one day be able to upgrade our 1st gen. LEAF's charger to 6.6 kW, such a retrofit could turn out to be prohibitively expensive.
Still, my opinion is that no EV manufacturer will in the near future come close to beating the LEAF in terms of overall value for the money. After government incentives, the price really is reasonable. I am glad I decided to jump in and make the purchase rather than wait for something better. You have to start somewhere. Hopefully our next EV will come with a nominal range of 300 miles (maybe that Dekra battery will work out), all wheel drive, and a price under $30K. :-)
· Jim McL (not verified) · 1 year ago
The price of the Leaf probably constitutes dumping. To kill the likes of Coda and a bunch of others. Oh Well.
· ex-EV1 driver · 1 year ago
@Jim McL,
"Dumping" may be a bit strong since clearly, the production costs of the Leaf will be below what Nissan is charging today, however, they clearly are amortizing their development costs and the costs to set up high-volume mass production over a long time. This is something that a start-up can't do without a significant amount of investment.
Its why I subscribe to Tesla's model as being viable for a startup but can't see how Coda, Think, Wheego, etc have much of a chance if the big guys start throwing their money against them.
The first 50,000 of any new car are probably going to cost over $100,000 each. Tesla is just smart enough to start out with a car that they can actually sell for that price. Coda et al can't with theirs.
· Anonymous (not verified) · 46 weeks ago
Even with being made in China I think they would sell quite a bit of them if the price was just a bit lower. They need to sell this at $30K after the fed tax rebate to have any chance of success. I bet that was their goal but as with many start ups costs begin to spiral and all of a sudden you priced yourself out of the market.
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Wonder why they didn't have a LEAF for their ride and drive? The Coda has got to be the only car on the planet that when painted yellow, and sporting racing rims, still looks vanilla.