@shamus,
Give plugincars.com a little bit of a break here. Things are moving very fast in this business. You aren't going to find any other sites that even have all historical references, let alone ones that are able to change everything, as soon as new information is learned.
Be glad that the up to date information is available here, in one place, at all since it is difficult to get sometimes.

"In my experience the individuals within Ford who are working on the company's EV plans have a palpable enthusiasm for EVs."

Absolutely. Infact I'm sure a lot of people have put in great effort and many late nights. The problem is management - are they really behind this effort ? I've seen many a project where people worked day & night but the project got canned (not saying that will happen here - but to show the enthusiasm of the foot soldiers is not an indication of where the management is).

This is what Bill Ford said in the other article about "convergence".

"We kept investing during the ‘dark days’ so that in 2012 we could introduce an EV like the C-Max.”

I hope Ford is more committed to be competitive with C-Max Energi (compared to Volt) than FFE in comparison with Leaf.

@alt-e (not verified) · "We may see a much more competitive price with the Energi because that may be where Ford decided to really place their bets from the start."

Hope so. But I've to wonder what do they consider a competitive price. Just like the Leaf comparison - Energi will be better than Volt in some respect (size) and worse in some respect (EV range). So, is $40K for Energi competitive ?

@Terrence Nissan would obviously use what they could - that's how you control cost. But, Leaf is a ground up design that incorporates the battery as part of the structure. In anycase see the question I was answering.

Many of us here are looking for the plug-in industry to take off. We are looking for that so that we can buy such vehicles ourselves but also because of the good that would do for many US and worldwide issues.

But in addition to all of that, I think that many of us would like to see the US car companies be competitive in this space. Plug-ins are the future of the car market just like compact and fuel efficient cars were the future of the car market during the late 70's/early 80's when the Japanese car companies came in with the right product and the US car companies only did the minimum they had to. Which lead the US auto industry into decline.

Rather than see that happen again, it would be good if the auto industry could be agressive in this new area where cars will eventually go. So if it looks like they have priced this vehicle just for limited volume sales this is concerning. I would rather they push the envelope and really try to take the lead. They will do better in the future as a company if they do. There are a lot of future jobs at stake.

@TrasKY · "The high price and limited quantity is in many ways probably an insurance that the first buyers will be of the early adopter variety, people who are excited by the new technology and want to be on the cutting edge and know that a."

Wouldn't those people already have (or have on order) a Leaf/Volt ?

@jim1961 "One year from now there will be nearly a dozen EVs and PHEVs available to choose from, each with it's own pros and cons. Is the glass half empty or half full?"

Focus EV @ 40K is better than no Focus EV at all.

But, if you are outside CA - you would have very few options a year from now - 3 PHEVs (Volt, Energi, PIP) and 4 EVs (Model S, Leaf, Focus EV & Mitsu i). If you leave out the tiny Mitsu i & expensive Model S - you have exactly 2 EVs on offer - Leaf & Focus EV. You can see why people are cribbing that one of the 2, is priced for small volumes.

@alt-e "The LEAF has more cargo volume than the Focus EV has, but the Energi will have more cargo space than the LEAF."

I've a comparison of all EV/PHEV dimensions/specs at MNL.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6715

On my Energi blog I tried to estimate the cargo space (and other dimensions) of Energi. I think it will have 27 cu.ft. compared to 23 cu.ft in Leaf. FFE will probably have 10 cu.ft or even less like Karma's 6.9 cu.ft. Passenger colume on FFE is likely to be a little higher than Leaf's 90 cu.ft.

I think some of it comes back to that in-house vs out-of-house issue I mentioned earlier. The Nissan LEAF uses Nissan batteries, electronics and motors. The Ford Focus EV uses vendor batteries, electronics and motors.

There are overheads and profits in the Ford EV that are not in the Nissan.

But it is different for the Energi. From what I understand the Energi will at least have electronics and motors in-house. Although they will still suffer out-of-house markups on the battery. But it will be a smaller battery pack than the LEAF.

@alt-e · "Either way, it would be good to have both cases listed. The cargo volume with the seats up for the LEAF is 14.5 and for the Volt 10.6 and for the Prius 21.6. Those are numbers I gathered from the different car companies over the previous months."

I'm using the single cargo number EPA gives.

@EVNow - That is fine. As I said, the table you put together is very convenient. Thanks again for doing it.

My 1st post so I apologize if I add comments that have been posted elsewhere on this site. I have been waiting for the FFE info and now that it's been made available I have a few comments and observations to make.

The FFE is 5% more expensive than the Leaf. I have owned 45 vehicles so far and rarely do any 2 vehicles that I am considering have the same price. I consider the price difference and what I get for that price difference... and often it's really just a matter of what appeals to me at the time. There have been posted comments that the Focus has more visual appeal than the Leaf. Visual appeal is worth something to me. If the Focus was just $100 more than the Leaf and you like the asthetics of the Focus more, would you pay the $100? If so, then my point is made: SOME of the $2000 difference could be justified just because you like the look of the Focus. Whether it's $100, $200, $500, or zero, that monetary value won't be resolved in a forum.

TrasKY made the comment that purchasing a Ford would provide benefit to the US economy. I agree with TrasKY and so would give preference (with some limits) toward the Focus. This reminds me of a phrase that Ross Perot used in '92... Economic Patriotism.

On a less opinion based note, I could use a bit of comment and clarification from others who have posted.

First, using rough numbers: If I have a round trip commute to work that is 60 miles and if I drive a Volt, then I will save about $2.00 per day compared to a gasoline powered 40mpg vehicle. If the Volt can drive 40 miles on a charge, I can avoid purchasing about 1 gallon of gasoline. Assuming $1.50 for a charge and $3.50 for a gallon of gasoline, then I will save $3.50 - $1.50 = $2.00 per day commuting to work assuming there is no charge station at work. If I have errands to run after work, then I will be running on gasoline, not electricity so there are no additional savings. So it seems reasonable to me that I can save $2.00 per day on fuel costs with a Volt.

If I drive a Ford Focus for that same commute, then the entire trip is on electricity. Using rough numbers again, I can avoid purchasing 1.5 gallons of gas so the savings would be approximately $5.25 (gas) - $2.25 (charge) = $3.00 per day on fuel costs. If I have errands to run after work then I should be able to realize a bit larger daily fuel cost savings.

Those conservative fuel savings would be greater if you were comparing the electric to a more typical 25mpg gasoline vehicle.

Changing subject a bit here. Every time I read an article or posted comments about electric vehicles I ask myself if I am close to justifying the purchase of an electric vehicle (assuming I can get one in Minnesota). Price is one consideration but another is risk. Perhaps I am not observant but I have not seen all of the required information to answer that question. We now have miles per charge and vehicle pricing, but I have not seen a warranty comparison done. The 'better' the manufacturer warranty, the less risk I take which gets me closer to my first electric car purchase.

One last item. In the documentary 'Who Killed the Electric Car' there was a spot where they compared the anticipated replacement parts required for a gasoline vehicle and an electric vehicle. If I recall correctly, the comparison was speculation at that time. Is there updated information available regarding electric vs gasoline vehicl parts and service cost comparisons?

Playing with simple rough numbers again: The FFE is approx $41,000. Subtract the $7500 tax credit leaves you with $33,500 to justify. That would be approx $600 per month for 60 months to purchase. If average fuel savings are $3.00 per day, times 30 days, you get approx $90 per month fuel savings with FFE or Leaf, and $60 per month with Volt. So $600 per month now becomes $510 or $540 per month. If an electric has a lower monthly maintenance cost, what would that be? For example, if the electrics so far have been $100 less per month in maintenance (engine/transmission repairs) compared to an equivalent gasoline vehicle, then I should be able to subtract another $100 and have a $410 or $440 monthly payment to consider when comparing gasoline power to electric powered vehicles.

Then there is the Volt to consider. It still has a gasoline powered engine which will have maintenance costs. The FFE and Leaf do not. So again, perhaps my logic is flawed, but I can't help thinking the monthly maintenance savings that an all electric vehicle might offer would be lost in the Volt to some extent. In a Volt, if either the gasoline engine or the electric drivetrain has a failure, then you really aren't going anywhere. In a FFE or Leaf, only a failure in the electric drivetrain will keep you from commuting. I really like GM vehicles, but I think Ford and Nissan made the better choice with all electric.

Pleasant, constructive criticisms and corrections to my comments are welcome.

@FredFlintstone, The one caution I would make has to do with your 60 mile commute in Minnesota (correct?). The range of the FFE might not be enough to do that in winter unless you have access to workplace charging. It depends a lot on what speed you will be driving, in addition to weather and heater use. If you have access to workplace charging you will be fine with the FFE.

@FredFlintstone · "So often I hear people comment that the colder temps will reduce the driving distance.That is not so, except for running the heating and air conditioning, so even those folks that live in the hot state of Texas will have reduced driving distance due to running the air conditioning. "

That is nor correct. Even if you don't use the heater, range will be lower in winter. If you use the heater at freeway speeds, you may get about 60 miles with Leaf/FFE. See my stats - collected over the last 8 months, daily.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6701

I'm not quite sure how to reply. I was trying to say what you said... the internal resistance goes up as the temperature goes down, without discussing internal resistance directly. Most people don't understand the concept of internal resistance of a battery so I tend to avoid discussing it. So we agree on internal resistance.

I am still not quite in agreement with the comments about noticeable capacity changes due to temperature. IF you are saying that a 1 hour charge for batteries in a cold Minnesota garage will receive a lesser charge when compared to a 1 hour charge for batteries in a hot Texas garage, then I agree. But that is a timed charge, and because the internal resistance of the batteries is higher in the cold climate, the charge rate will be lower so you get less charge in 1 hour. If however, you allow the charge on the cold climate batteries to run to completion, I still believe that both Minnesota and Texas batteries will hold the same charge.

I took a look at your stats and I do not dispute them. After all, you're the one with EV experience, not I. I believe it was the Tesla website that indicated their cold weather testing showed a 10% decrease in driving distance due to running the heater constantly during their test. Your driving distance variation seems to be a bit more substantial than what the Tesla site suggested, and to be honest a bit alarming considering that your temperatures are not what I would call cold at all. I must admit that I am still a bit skeptical though. With that skepticism... IF I AM CORRECT that the capacity is for practical purposes unchanged due to outside temperature, and IF THE TESLA site is correct that driving distance is only affected by 10% due to running the heater or air conditioning, then your data indicates that there is another factor that I am not considering.

Excuse my ignorance about the different ways each manufurer manages their battery packs, but do some manufacturers like Nissan heat their battery packs in cool or cold weather and others such as Tesla or Ford choose not to heat the battery packs? Perhaps that would be worth considering. I could understand the decision not to heat the packs in cool or cold weather. Power loss (heat) equals current (amps) squared times the internal resistance of the batteries. A higher internal resistance in cool/cold weather would result in the batteries heating up quickly due to the higher internal resistance and therefore would not require additional heating. To some degree, that would result in some amount of self regulating temperature control. Once the batteries heated up, the internal resistance would go down, and the batteries would emit less heat (power loss). Well that's my thought but it's not based on any experience with EV's. Actually, I would expect a noticeable amount of energy being consumed to keep the battery temperatures cooled down in a warm climate.

I value your stats and I will have to give it more thought. I am not trying to win an argument but I am trying to understand what caused your EV to experience such a significant variation in driving distance for such a small variation in temperature. Extending your graph, I might expect the driving distance on a cold Minnesota morning, say -20 degrees, (almost 70 degrees colder)... well, there might not be any point to estimating the driving distance and just leave it in the garage. I say that just a bit in jest, but if I did drive my EV to work on such a cold morning, I still need to get home from a location that does not have a charging station. Admittedly the temp would likely have risen to zero degrees by the time I head home from work. We really don't get many days like that, but we do get them.

I need to think this through.......

Fred

JRP3, Good comments and I agree with your comments but I would be very surprised if the intelligent battery chargers didn't automatically adjust themselves for this.

Piece at a time...

Your note "The increased internal resistance from the cold causes the voltage to increase faster when charging. Unless the charger compensates for the lower temperature by allowing the charging to continue at the higher voltage less charge will actually go into the battery."

I agree, but it would be quite easy for the charger to determine the internal resistance of the battery at any time during the charging process. That could be determined by placing a load on the battery for a few seconds, say 20 amps for example, and measuring the battery voltage drop. Admittedly you would not want to increase the voltage beyond a level that would damage the electrolyte but I believe that an intelligent battery charger could compensate for higher internal battery resistance by monitoring the resistance, increasing the charge voltage, and just run longer which would result in the same amount of charge. The downside of living in a cold climate (of which there are many) is that our EVs will just take longer to charge to full capacity. So long as my EV is ready in the morning when I head off to work, that's not a problem. Whether the charging process completes its charge at 3am or 4am is not an issue.

Next you mention "On the other side, during discharge voltage sags more for the same current, so to deliver the same power as the voltage sags more current must be used, draining the cell faster, and giving you less range. If you live in a colder climate and you need to get most of your range year round you want a fully heated pack"

I guess I won't answer that with, well, answers, but with questions because I don't own an EV and my EV experience is limited to a 15 minute test drive in a Volt on a fair summer day.

I agree that the voltage will sag initially due to the higher internal resistance from the cold temperature of the batteries. Power equals current squared times resistance. For this my lack of experience means I don't have real numbers. Picking numbers out of thin air, if the current draw is 50 amps and the internal resistance is .01 ohms, then 25 watts of heat will be generated within the batteries. Wouldn't this heat increase the temperature of the batteries as you drive? So, wouldn't this issue diminish, or self correct itself, as you drive? For short commutes maybe there wouldn't be enough drive time for the batteries to heat up. I don't know. But, you are correct that there would be a penalty for the cold battery temperature. So if I want to drive 55 MPH on a cold day, I would have to push a bit harder on the accelerator and that would cost me some amount driving distance.

One more: "Actually Tesla heats their pack, Nissan only does so on the newer models and only at extreme temps, below -20 to keep the electrolyte from freezing."

I did not know that. It seems logical to me that during the night while the batteries are charging, the batteries would be heated from the 120/240 volt power line and from the charging process itself. For the return trip, when my EV has been parked for 8 hours without a charger, the batteries would be at the ambient outside temperature. If I heat the batteries using some of the charge that they contain, I would have to wonder whether it is best to use that energy to heat the batteries or to propel the EV closer to my garage. I didn't realize that there were issues with freezing the electrolyte. If so, then some charge would have to be drawn on those rare days when the temperature gets that low in Minnesota. In that case, you would want to make sure there was ample charge in the batteries to allow heating them during the entire time we have extremely cold temperatures. You say that Tesla and now Nissan heat their batteries. When are they heating them? Is it during the charging cycle, during the early stages of driving, or is it during the entire driving time? If they heat them during the entire drive time in a cold climate, then that tells me the heat generated by the higher internal resistance is not sufficient to heat the batteries during a commute.

Thanks once again for the info. I am not sure that we have stayed on topic (The Ford Focus Electric), but I guess this discussion applies to the FFE as well. Hopefully someone other than us finds this helpful.

Fred

The great thing about lithium batteries is very low internal resistance. Yes they do self heat somewhat, but you simply will not have the same performance on a 20 degree day as you will on a 70 degree day and your range will suffer.
As I said the charger could compensate somewhat for temperature during charging but I don't know to what degree and/or if they actually do so. Tesla's answer is to keep the cells within a specific temperature, and they will do this when plugged in and also they will use energy from the pack if needed when not plugged in. A Tesla unplugged for a long time will eventually kill it's pack I think.
I actually misspoke about the Nissan heating, I think it actually comes on at 14F and it's not actually to prevent electrolyte freezing but to prevent damage from driving or charging at low temps. I think the batteries are fine at lower temps if just sitting there, it's when trying to move current in or out that problems arise.
So in quick summary, cells do self heat somewhat, but not enough to compensate for really low temperatures, chargers can compensate by reducing current, extending charge times, and/or allowing higher voltage, but I don't know if they do or how much, and I don't know how long the LEAF battery heater runs in cold weather.

Thanks for the comments.

I did not take into account that the Teslas have larger battery packs and therefore heating/air conditioning would have a smaller impact on driving distance. That would explain why the Nissan stats above show more than a 10% hit. I don't like what that implies about electric car feasability for those of us in the colder states. I will have to wait and see.

Fred

Right but internal resistance only heats the cells so much. As you say there are a number of reasons for lower mileage in the cold, some have nothing to do with the battery, but charging a warm pack and discharging a warm pack will get you further than a cold one, all things being equal. Ideally with an insulated enclosure and a preheated pack it would not take much energy to keep the pack at a warmer temperature. Most of us DIY types that drive in the winter use resistance heating pads and insulated battery boxes which help keep the packs warm and the range up. I don't drive mine once the snow starts flying, or once they start dumping a lot of salt, so I have an unheated and uninsulated pack and I notice a loss of range even around 35-40 degree temps.

@FredFlintstone · "I value your stats and I will have to give it more thought. I am not trying to win an argument but I am trying to understand what caused your EV to experience such a significant variation in driving distance for such a small variation in temperature."

If you read thr' that thread - you will see many of us are asking the same question.

It could easily be the difference between driving in the rain and no rain. In Seattle, we have rainy winters and very dry summers.

@JRP3, I believe that the 2012 LEAF does have extra insulation on the battery pack, in addition to the heater elements. But I haven't looked at the service manual to verify this.

It might be possible to modify the car to get the current heater to come on at higher temperatures.

@dgpcolorado · "I believe that the 2012 LEAF does have extra insulation on the battery pack, in addition to the heater elements. But I haven't looked at the service manual to verify this."

No. The idea is the heat of the batteries get dissipated since they are in thermal contact with the metal bottom cover. That is why Leaf doesn't need to cool the battery.

@Jeff Keiffer,
Electric cars in the late 1800's may have made it to 60 mph but could probably go less than 10 miles at that speed and their total range at ~25 mph was less than 50 miles. They also had to be very expensive to be able to go either 60 mph or 50 miles. They also required a lot of battery maintenance and the batteries didn't last very long.
You're right that Gen2 lead acid EV1 were able to go nearly 100 miles at 60 mph. All cars back then were a lot more expensive (adjusting for inflation) than today's cars and offered a while lot less (not waterproof, 30K mile life, no safety, no pollution control, no amenities - radio, A/C, turn signals, pulse wipers, noisy, lighted vanity mirrors, high beams, backup lights, brake lights, marker lights, flash-to-pass, cupholders, electric mirrors, electric windows, electric locks, remote keyless entry, dimmable rear-view mirrors, defrosters, auto headlights, headlight-on reminder, steering column locks, . . . . . )
The EV1 was really quite an improvement. Tesla's cars and even the Leaf are revolutionarily better.

Yeah there is a major error here comparing cars that were basically golf carts in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with modern vehicles. Also a problem with comparing the EV1 which was a very streamlined and optimized small car with today's larger and more feature laden EV's. I do think we should have more EV1 type designs out there at this point getting more range from available batteries.

The Focus cannot charge as fast at 240 as the leaf at 480, not even close.

@Ben Bethel (not verified) · "You can lease a prius for 189/mo, a volt or leaf for 349/mo, and I bet by next October the volt, leaf, focus ev will be 299/mo with 2000 cash at lease inception. I also believe the tesla s will start at around 449/mo, but drop to 349/mo by late 2013, especially considering what you can currently lease a luxury car like a Mercedes for these days. "

You are way offbase. Tesla isn't even thinking of offering a lease on S - let alone a highly subsidized one.

The battery density goes up about 10% per year - not double every 18 months like it happens with electronics. So you won't find the battery price falling anywhere close to the speed of electronics.

BTW, you can no longer lease Leaf for $349. MY12 price has gone up.