First Drive of Nissan LEAF: Shatters Range Concerns

Brad Berman · Brad Berman · 1 year ago

The PluginCars.com crew just returned from a one-hour drive through San Francisco in the Nissan LEAF. I had the geeky thrill of driving down Lombard Street—the city’s famed winding street—in the LEAF. But the biggest eye-opener was what we saw on the screen in terms of driving range, as well as what Nissan’s Mark Perry told us about the LEAF’s battery capabilities. Here are the highlights:

When Nick Chambers, Zach McDonald, and Mark stepped into the car, the dashboard display indicated an average of 14.7 miles traveled per kilowatt-hour of energy used. A dozen or so miles later, we managed to reduce the efficiency to 13.6 miles per kilowatt-hour. Seeing those numbers shattered my expectation that EVs almost always travel 4 miles per kilowatt-hour.

Keep in mind that almost all of our driving in SF was stop-and-go low-speed driving in congested traffic. Mark acknowledged that the miles-per-kilowatt-hour metric would go down in highway driving. However, seeing the capability of the LEAF to squeeze that much mileage out of a kilowatt-hour showed how the total range of the car’s 24 kilowatt-hour battery pack, under fairly common conditions, could easily go way beyond 100 miles.

The key could be the effectiveness of the LEAF’s regenerative braking system. We spent about half the time in regular “Drive” mode and half the time in the “Eco” mode, which uses more aggressive regen. As a result, when we started out, the display showed 63 miles of range left in the battery—but around 12 miles later, the display showed 59 miles of range. Again, our driving cycle, with lots of braking at low speeds, gave plenty of opportunity for the regenerative braking to extend the car’s range.

The biggest revelation from Mark was that Nissan engineers are allowing 95 percent of the LEAF’s energy storage to be used. This stands in sharp contrast to the Chevy Volt, which only ever uses 8 of its 16 kilowatt-hour pack. In most conventional hybrids, the battery is never charged or discharged beyond 60 or 70 percent.

Mark believes that it will be a rare occurrence for a LEAF driver to dip so far into the state-of-charge. Regardless, Nissan is showing a great degree of confidence in the capability and durability of its battery technology to allow so much of its capacity to be used in those rare times. This could be a key differentiator from the competition. (Bear in mind that the warranty on the LEAF's battery is 8 years or 100,000 miles.)

Combine the big number for miles-per-kilowatt with the 95% battery usage figure to get a picture of a robust well-managed battery that—at least for in-town driving—could mean high real-world numbers for driving range.

Other tidbits:

  • Acceleration was smooth and effortless on San Francisco’s very steep hills—regardless of the driving mode. It only took another inch or so of accelerator movement in Eco mode for the LEAF to confidently zoom up hills.
  • During the city’s busy and noisy late afternoon traffic, the LEAF’s sound warning was barely audible.
  • At 6’4”, I had plenty of head and legroom in the driver seat and backseat. Two large adults in the backseat would have no problems, and three can fit in a pinch.
  • As expected in an EV, acceleration was brisk, quiet and smooth—and the handling and driver experience were uneventful. In other words, it drove like a competent compact car, requiring no adjustments or changes from how you would operate a gas-powered car. That’s a good thing.

That’s it for now. It’s been a tiring three days at the Plugin2010 conference in San Jose. We’ll be writing up more of our discoveries in the next few days. Also, Nick shot video of our LEAF ride in San Francisco, and will soon have something to show—including a detailed narrated visual rundown of the dashboard screens and features. Stay tuned.

UPDATE 7/30/2010: After receiving numerous emails and comments suggesting that we were off our rockers and/or mistaken and/or the LEAF's computer was broken, we reached out to Nissan to make sure that the 13.6-14.7 mpkWh number we had seen on the LEAF's computer was accurate. Nissan's zero emissions crew got back to us saying that the numbers are accurate and the computer is not broken. In fact Katherine Zachary, Nissan's Manager of Corporate Communications, wrote in an email, "Driving factors including city driving (rather than high-speed driving), Eco mode and Regen (and not running the AC full blast) all contributed to these results. It's worth noting they are right on par with other drives we have been doing on the West Coast (San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco were all over 14 mpkWh)." -- Nick Chambers

Photo: The LEAF in downtown San Francisco.

Comments

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Very cool that you got such a lengthy, hands-on drive!

One thing that needs mentioning though is that there's no way... and I mean NO way that the Leaf will see anything near 13 or 14 miles per kWh on a regular basis with any sort of normal driving. If it managed 5 miles I'd be jumping up and down with joy. The expectation that "all EVs travel 4 miles per kWh" is actually a pretty high bar to meet! Any car larger or less aero than the LEAF won't be able to touch four. There could be many reasons why the display was showing something very high - I'm a bit non-plussed that Mr. Perry didn't offer up a logical explanation for the anomoly you saw.

I hate like heck to temper the excitement... but please don't expect the Leaf to ever achieve anything remotely near 24 x 14 x .95 = 320 miles of range! (that's 24 kWh x 14 miles per kWh x 95% SOC usage).

You'll notice that 24 x 4 is almost 100 miles - about what we can all expect to see.

· Michael (not verified) · 1 year ago

Brad,
You learned one of the secrets of SF--the king of the hill(s) is the king of regenerative breaking. When I did a test drive of the Ford Escape Hybrid on the hills there a few years back I think I ended up with more juice in the battery after the drive in spite of running in EV mode as much as possible.

Sounds like a fun drive, though. Wish I could have been there (but I did get to drive the Leaf on the freeway down in San Jose). It acquitted itself quite well.

· Brad Berman · 1 year ago

DD - I can go back and ask how anomalous those readings were. I agree that it doesn't add up. Although it may give some credence to Nissan's claims that the range could go well above 100, depending on a number of favorable conditions.

The LEAF's dashboard offers fairly sophisticated metrics on energy usage. So maybe it'll take some time to interpret the numbers in a meaningful way--that doesn't give a false impression of what's really happening. On our trip today, I could clearly see the numbers being shown--but it will take a few weeks of driving to understand the real patterns of energy usage, charging times, etc. The picture will become even clearer if we all report our experiences to one another. It'll be cool to watch the reports come in.

· Darin Kirschner (not verified) · 1 year ago

Great read Brad. You are fortunate to be able to play with these new toys!

What gets me is the possible uncertainty of "how much further do I have to go?" with this system. As a guy who has done a lot of rendering of animation, the biggest frustration digital artists have is in how long the render will take. A director comes in needing the piece of animation you're working on and because of how software caculates how long it will take to finish, you sometimes can't give an accurate response, which can be gut wrenching when on deadline. Reading you account, I was immediately struck by the same feeling... When will I know I'll seriously be needing a charge, or will this car keep going to get me to all of my appointments today?

Granted, the Leaf is supposed to be a city car, but living in Texas where even city distances can be vast, in an average day its not out of the question to drive 100 miles and not yet be home. The infrastructure won't be the ONLY determinate of efficiency, (how many charging stations will be nearby) so will how long it takes to charge, and whether one is required to do a full charge each time. (to retain battery life). I can see not WANTING to stop in the middle of the day and charge the car for a few hours. That means being able to accurately predict the daily range will become critical. If my "gallons to empty" has become an electric metric that fluctuates with the terrain and circumstances of my driving and the number of miles available ahead of me fluctuates, I'm going to become a nervous driver. That's a horrible feeling for a person to live under every day.

Any thoughts?

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Brad -

I have no doubt that the car wil be capable of travelling over 100 miles with proper handling. And that will keep it firmly in the 4-5 miles per kWh category. Well within a reasonable efficiency envelope. This is the first car that will come equipped with a proper set of informational displays - whereas before we had to make our own with Palm devices, and/or ScanGages. this is finally a move in the proper direction! And I'm sure the data will make more sense as the car is driven normally for a few days. Test-drive cars can't be counted on for anything that takes a while to accumulate data. You never know what's happened with the car immediately before you sit in it.

Darin -

Your concern is the age-old one of range anxiety, and you make at least one assumption that is doing you no favors. You NEVER need to charge the car to full, though you'll likely do that each night without fretting. On the road, you can plug in for as long or as short a time as you'd like or need. On a DC fast charger, a recharge will be very quick indeed. I can understand that there will be days when you do not want to stop to charge. And I can tell you with certaintly that there has NEVER been a time that I wanted to stop at a gas station and fuel up. It turns out that you end up doing what you have to do.

But anyway - the bottom line here is that EV range anxiety is real, and it happens (or happened) to all of us. And I can tell you that it only remains for those who don't have EV experience. Once you start driving one, you learn what it's capabilities are, and you learn to read the instrumentation properly. The folks who never get used to it are those who's daily drives are not at all suited to an EV's range.... or those who are simply looking for a way to disparage EVs. The rest of us learn to avoid the ansiety with experience. There are people who have gasoline anxiety every day, and never let the tank get as below 3/4 full before filling back up - so there are all types, of course.

Your miles until empty will always vary with driving conditions and style. Just like they do in every other car. The effect is just magnified because of the lower range offered by today's battery cars. But having driven several ~100 mile cars for many years (not in Texas mind you, where I was told - directly to my face as I asked for walking directions - that only fools walk more than a few blocks) I can confidently say that just like with anything else you use for a while (the VCR/DVR, computer, other cars, bicycles, motorcycles, etc) that humans are really good at working with what they've got. The learning curve is steep and easy, and the payoff is well worth the small effort of learning to drive without gasoline.

Don't worry. Be happy.

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

Darin,

I agree with a lot of what Darell said so I'm not going to repeat much of it. I can add that there are areas that these cars just won't work in just yet and you may live in such an area in Texas. I have been living with a 100mpc MINI-E for over a year now and have learned that I needed to rethink how my refueling was done.

I was so conditioned to make a specific trip to refuel my car (drive it to a refueling station) that I was still thinking along those lines when I started driving the MINI-E. It's different with an EV. You refuel while you are doing something else like sleeping, working or shopping(once there are more public charge points). I drive a lot and last year I put 33,000 miles on the MINI-E by charging every night and also plugging in when I arrive at work so charging the car didn't impact my daily routine, I charge it when I would not be driving it anyway.

Even if you drive 150 miles a day that would mean you are driving about 3-4 hours each day. That leaves the car sitting idle for over 20 hours with a perfect opportunity to recharge. Yes you need to plan your day and spontaneous long drives aren't possible until the ranges increase and there are quick charge stations in accessible locations so these cars are not for everyone, but what car is for everyone? None, so that's why we have hybrids, SUV's, pick ups, large sedans, micro hatchbacks, etc. You get to choose what suit your needs and desires. I'm betting a lot of people will buy these cars once they have the opportunity to drive them and talk to their friends that own one. A few years ago I wouldn't have thought that I could live with one, but I was wrong and now it's all I want to drive.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Well said, Tom!

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Thanks for all the comments guys! It was a great experience to be given the car for over an hour to drive and it gave us some time to really get into the displays and details. It was my second time in the car, so I decided to give Brad and Zach the opportunity to do all the driving. One thing I'll add is that the average of 14.7 mpkWh was for whatever distance it had been driven since its last charge. Since we don't know exactly when it was last charged, or where it was driven since that last charge, it makes the guesswork for what that really means difficult. We drove 12 miles in an hour and managed to knock that number down by about 1 mpkWh. Another tidbit that we didn't have time to fully explore was that the display in front of the driver provides real time metrics, and at one point we were flipping through the screens and I was able to see that the car was returning 8 mpkWh. I'm not sure if that was instantaneous mpkWh or the average of our entire trip up to that point so, again, it's difficult to tease out what that means, but either way, that's a very respectable number.

So, I think you guys are all right in that the mpkWh will vary drastically with conditions of driving, but what is clear is that if you are willing to re-train yourself, even just a little bit, on how to drive more efficiently, you'll be able to squeeze some serious miles out of the LEAF. And even if you don't change anything about your driving habits, you'll still be able to get more range than what 90% of Americans require on a daily basis.

· Brad Berman · 1 year ago

Great comments, all around. We're all on the same page.

For me, the experience answered the burning question in my mind: How could Nissan promise 100 miles range with a 24 kWh pack, based on the "4 miles per kWh rule" and babying the battery by not using all its capacity? The answer is that they can go at least a mile or two (if not more) per kWh, especially with effective regen--and they are willing to dip way into the battery (as much as 95 percent in extreme cases).

Proof is in the pudding. When LEAF drivers start hitting the roads in numbers, then we'll know more about real-world range.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

We recently drove a Tesla Roadster from 0 ft MSL to South Lake Tahoe (6,200 ft MSL) and back. Each direction about 109 miles. On the way up we drove quite "gingerly" (rarely over 55mph and about half of it between about 45mph), just in case the expected charging opportunity would "fail". We were able to do 2.75hrs of charging at the Lake, which gave us a great comfort buffer. On the way "down the hill" we drove "normal" and with more A/C. On the way up: 274Wh/mile (3.6 miles per kWh). Coming back down: 161Wh/mile (6.2 mpk).

At its optimum (constant 18mph), the Tesla Roadster can do about 410 miles on 53kWh. That's on flat ground, no regen, no coasting, no tricks, no hypermiling. Simply its optimum theoretical range. That's 7.7 mpk.

Realistically speaking, forget anything over 5 mpk for any average distance and reasonable ("normal") conditions (terrain, speed, traffic).

· LEAFguy · 1 year ago

Brad,

Thank you for the first (that I've seen) truly informative article about your driving experience. You gave us real examples of use and experience of both the standard and eco modes. One concern that I had heard from others was the acceleration in eco mode. You confirmed my understanding of the system - eco mode provides for more energy conservation on accelerator pedal initial application. Further depressing the throttle provides normal acceleration. Nissan uses similar throttle management with their ICE vehicles (in certain functional modes), so that is what I anticipated here. Also nice to hear about its interior roominess.

Must be nice to be one of the fortunate few!

LEAFguy
http://livingleaf.info

· John Corcoran (not verified) · 1 year ago

Great review, Brad. I was at Plug In 2010 on Wednesday night, and was happy to see the Leaf in person for the first time, especially after receiving an email Wed afternoon stating that I would get off the waitlist in December of this year.

This is the most thorough review discussing range of the Leaf as I've seen yet. Thanks for the info.

· Any mouse (not verified) · 1 year ago

So how many miles do you get in the winter in MN with the heater on?

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Probably somewhat fewer miles than you'd get in spring in MN with the heater off. But more miles than you'd get in late fall when driving up to Tahoe in CA. Depends totally on how you drive. Same as in any other vehicle.

See my article here: http://www.plugincars.com/rav4ev-range-considerations.html

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

Yes, what range with the heater on? The down fall of all EV's so far has been the heater. Try heating a car with batteries only when it is 10 to 20 degrees outside.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

I'm going to take a wild guess that you've never tried to heat a car with batteries when it is "10 or 20 degrees outside." Have you?

I have. You know what happens? The cabin gets warm and the batteries keep pushing me down the road. Have you read in the press like I have that using the heat or headlights or windshield wipers or AC will "cut your range in half?" Well, it turns out that the only people who say (and believe) that sort of stuff are the people who have no EV driving experience.

There is no "downfall of EVs," though there are certainly some less than perfect aspects. Heat and cooling really aren't even in the running for that title though.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

To all following this comment thread, please note the update just added to the story. I've pasted it here as well:

UPDATE 7/30/2010: After receiving numerous emails and comments suggesting that we were off our rockers and/or mistaken and/or the LEAF's computer was broken, we reached out to Nissan to make sure that the 13.6-14.7 mpkWh number we had seen on the LEAF's computer was accurate. Nissan's zero emissions crew got back to us saying that the numbers are accurate and the computer is not broken. In fact Katherine Zachary, Nissan's Manager of Corporate Communications, wrote in an email, "Driving factors including city driving (rather than high-speed driving), Eco mode and Regen (and not running the AC full blast) all contributed to these results. It's worth noting they are right on par with other drives we have been doing on the West Coast (San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco were all over 14 mpkWh)."

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

Can anyone tell me what they think the Leaf will get going 65 mph without running the heater or the AC? Would love to get 80 miles out of this car but that sound unrealistic. Help, my favorite surf spot is 82 miles round trip away and I desperately want a Leaf, will it work?
Thanks for the great article.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

CT,

What kind of topography are we talking about between your home and the surf spot? Up, down, flat, varied? Also, even if the speed limit is 65 mph, there's nothing forcing you to travel that fast. The way EVs work, even if you traveled at 60 mph you'd squeeze a lot more range out of it than if you were traveling at 65 mph. And really, what does that extra 5 minutes mean anyways? Do you live in a temperate climate? What are your average temps and do you ever need to travel when the temps are above 100 degrees or lower than 40?

All of these considerations are important for deciding if the LEAF will match your range requirements.

· Tom Moloughney · 1 year ago

CT:
Nick is right on with the speed to distance correlation. I have a MINI-E and I have learned to really manipulate my range be adjusting my driving style. If I have no worries about range, you may see me doing 75-80mph with the heater or A/C on full blast. However by simply driving slower(and yes even 5 mph slower) I can squeeze out more miles. I can easily add 10 miles per charge to my range by keeping it under 65 and not wasting energy with excessive a/c or heat. You don't have to turn it off, just lower the fan speed. In the winter I found that I could turn the heat on for 10 minutes and then off for 10 minutes and still keep the cabin warm when it wasn't really too cold outside.
Unless you really can't control your urge to speed, I bet the LEAF will make your 82 mile trip.
As for the topography, since it's a round trip whatever you go up you have to go down so it shouldn't make that much a difference. I have a ten mile loop near my house that I drive frequently. I use 10% charge on the first 5 miles mostly uphill and then 2% on the last 5 miles back home.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

I just read the addition to the post regarding the ~14 mpkWh being *correct.*

I still can't buy it. Wouldn't Nissan make a huge deal out of their 300 mile range car instead of scaring people with the tiny 100 miles? 14 mpkWh would be huge news. HUGE. Since no other production car - even one with vastly superior aero - has ever come close. The question I would ask to clear this up: Has anybody ever driven the car "normally" from full to empty and achieved anything over 5 mpkWh? From all the tests and stats I've seen, the answer is a resounding NO. I think we all understand that huge mile per kWh numbers are easy to achieve at various points along a trip. But you can't keep going down hill and with the wind all the time! I'm still not convinced... even after they've officially said it is real. If it is real and common, let's call this a 300 mile car! The same way that my Prius is a 99 mpg car since hundreds of times on every trip I can show you that it is achieving just that.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Darell,

I think we're all in agreement, and I think Nissan would actually agree with you too! What they're essentially saying is that, in the driving situations they've been presented with during media test drives, they've averaged above 14 mpkWh. The media test drives they've done so far have been short hops in urban settings in temperate climates with low A/C. I don't think Nissan is claiming that they'll return anywhere near 14 mpkWh on an average basis. In fact, I just got an email from Mark Perry restating that on the LA4 cycle they get above 4 mpkWh, but that the mpkWh that we saw on our test drive was indeed accurate. Once we start getting some real time behind the wheel the absolute truth will come out.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Nick -

Got it. Just confusion about "short-term" or "instantaneous" readings vs actual "range."

Here is a chart that shows the Leaf range results with a wide range of variables.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3036/rangenf.png

Of course none of them indicate anything surprising... or close to 14 miles per kWh!

· nick (not verified) · 1 year ago

hey i like the debate i think those that have to drive more than 100 miles in a day need to cut back that is major problem y live so far away from everything y spend 4 -5 hrs in a car ppl r wasting their lives in cars i live on other side of city then my job prolly 15 miles away i have walked driven, rode a bike rode my moped took the bus doesnt matter to me the cheaper the better so i can have extra money in my pocket

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Nick,

While the ideal may be something along the lines of "everybody should live within 5 miles of where they work," the reality is that can't happen... at least not today. Our country needs an entirely different infrastructure for that to happen and our economy needs to be much stronger to support a more diverse variety of jobs. Also, that ignores the people that live in rural areas. Those rural areas can't be empty wastelands: they serve a vital and important role in our society and economy. So, in lieu of us being able to obtain the ideal, the best thing we can do in the short term is to make our current infrastructure cleaner and more beneficial for our local economies... electric cars go an incredibly long way to solving those problems. They also, as an added benefit, make us less vulnerable to the global addiction that is oil.

· Dave (not verified) · 1 year ago

One thing that hasn't been mentioned on heating and cooling. You can run the heater or air conditioner while the car is plugged into the charger so you start out with a warm or cool car and full batteries at the same time. The heat/ac runs just fine off of electricity from the wall, unlike a gas car. Then the only energy you use from the batteries is just to maintain the temperature you like.

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

Nick and Tom,
Thanks for the insight. I live in Petaluma, which is north of San Francisco. 41 miles north! The climate is, as you must know, about as temperate as it gets. The only hill going into the City is the Waldo Grade. The rest of the drive has some hills but nothing monumental. My round trip to work is 40 miles so that should work and the temperature is rarely above 100 or below 40. Even then I was thinking that heating or cooling the car while still on the charger would be enough on most days. It is just frustrating that no one knows what the real world capability will be i.e., 60 to 65 on the highway.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

CT... did you by chance see the chart I posted?

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3036/rangenf.png

Oh, and don't forget Puerto Suello Hill! (I grew up in San Rafael).

My crystal ball says that you'll be fine (and I know from many, many years of experience that you don't need to drive 65 on that route) - especially if you can find a 120V plug at work.

Please not that there is no such thing as "real world capability" at any given speed. Because the world is different for all of us. Two drivers can drive my EV on the same roads at the same average speed, and the range can be easily 20% different. Same thing happens with gas cars, but it is mostly hidden behind the excessive range.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

In response to darelldd. I did own a 144volt, home built, S10 EV pickup with an electric heater. Yes 24 new 6 volt golf cart batteries and a range of 40 miles on a 20 degree day in January. It was my commuter car and I went 38 miles to work, charged at work and drove back 38 miles each day. It was fun but nerve racking. Very few hills (Coastal MA.) but I use to hope for a sunny morning to warm the cab. Just a cab of an S10. I never used the defrost, it would suck amps and greatly decrease the range. Just dressed very warm to prepare myself for a freezing ride. I would only use the heater on a 10 mile commute in the same weather. I used to prewarm the cab with an electric heater but as everyone knows a car does not hold heat for very long. Just turn the engine off in an ICE vehicle and sit in it in 20 degree weather and see how long it takes to feel cold. Welcome to the Northeast winters.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Ah. Well comparing a home-built, lead-acid car with no pre-conditioning to a modern, production Lithium car isn't going to get us far (pun intended). The difference in performance of the two battery chemistries in cold is huge. And that's before we take into account preconditioning and more efficient heaters.

But anyway. Sorry to have made a bad assumption. My experience comes from production electrics. We have several Ravs driving in the snow.

· abasile · 1 year ago

It was nice to read the above comment from the Tesla driver who drove to Lake Tahoe. That elevation gain (0' to 6230') is more than ours when driving up "our" mountain in SoCal. But in our case, we have to climb about 5000 feet in only 16 miles to get home from the "flatlands". Assuming we drive a LEAF and average 45mph on the climb without AC or heat, I wonder how many kWh it'll take. I'm really hoping we can make this work. BTW, most of our drives are within the San Bernardino Mountains communities, and involve much less elevation change.

· Richard (not verified) · 1 year ago

Thank you darelldd for the graphic on reported range for the Leaf. One important feature of the data is the impact of heating/air conditioning. With heat/ac on, the range is from 47 to 70 miles. With it off, the range is 105 to 138. At least under the conditions reported, using the heating/ac makes a large difference.

· Steve R (not verified) · 1 year ago

Support the American economy by buying American cars.

· Fabio (not verified) · 1 year ago

I have a commute on 101 from San Mateo to San Jose (24 miles).
Will the LEAF range work for me driving on the diamond lane (65-70 mph) with AC and radio on?
I'd rather not have to recharge it at work.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

Fabio,

My gut tells me you'll be fine. Even in worst case scenarios (75 mph, 110 degrees outside, A/C blasting, radio on, up hill, 4 adults in the car) the LEAF will likely return about 45 miles on a full charge. Sounds like you'll be far from worst case. And if you need to pick up an extra 10 miles at work you'll be able to do that on a 110V regular outlet in about 2 hours of charging.

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

darelldd,
Thanks for the graph. As Richard pointed out the thing that really stands out is the use of the AC/Heat. As for driving behavior: I think that a lot of us that have put down the $99.00 reservation fee have a Prius and are already driving in a manner that is conducive to high mileage, myself included. This morning I drove to Bodega Bay and instead of 60-65 I went 55-60 and was able to achieve 51 mpg. As Tom and Nick said 5 mph less makes a big difference. The same trip going faster would usually cause 46-48 mpg. That's 6% better, a big difference when you are talking about a car with a hundred miles. This post and all the responses has gotten me excited about the Leaf and makes me think I can pull this off. The real key to the whole thing will be finding an outlet at work. If that happens I am golden.

· CautiousEnthusiast (not verified) · 1 year ago

The NISSAN LEAF sounds like a great car. I have been signed up with my $100 deposit since a couple of hours after the sign-up became available. Luckily, I live in a state which is very forward-looking and we already have a project underway to put level 3 (fast) charging stations at regular intervals on one of our major highways. Range anxiety is what I see as the greatest challenge in breaking down the barriers of conventional ways of thinking. Another big doubt comes from my experience with the aging of rechargeable batteries. I understand that the charge capacity of a rechargeable battery can be maintained better if the charge is allowed to deplete almost completely before recharging. Rechargeable batteries have been likened to muscles. Use or lose. But even with full charging, and subsequent majority depletion, rechargeable batteries gradually lose their charge-life over time. An older battery will hold less charge. and this range loss is gradual. Only time will tell, but it seems optimistic to think the battery will last for 8 years. Perhaps one of the big expenses in driving an EV could be battery replacement. Can you please comment on these issues?

By the way, KUDOS for developing the first practical four-seater EV!

· darelldd · 1 year ago

CautionEnthusiast -

Not all "rechargeable" battery chemistries are the same. NiCad wanted to be drained all the way as often as possible. NiMH wants to be drained all the way on a regular, but not constant basis. Li-Ion doesn't want to be drained any more than it has to be. Making batteries last is a balancing act between cost, weight and % of capacity used. If you only allow the sweet spot of the SOC to be used, the batteries can last a long, long time. If you put more money into thermal management, the pack can last a long time.

I'm driving an 8-year-old EV that has batteries in it designed in the early 90's. We've driven this car every day for eight years, and have about 80.000 miles on it. The batteries are still going strong. Many drivers went well over 100,000 miles before losing range, and a few got really clost to 150,000 miles before they needed to replace the pack. And this is in a car with air-cooled batteries. With better thermal management, the batteries would be doing even better.

· CautiousEnthusiast (not verified) · 1 year ago

Great! Thanks for the personal experience of an 8-year-old EV. But which technology does your car use? With the inevitable expansion of Level 3 charging stations, this revolution can really get rolling. Unfortunately, we don't have enough experience with many of these battery technologies.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Oops. Sorry about that. Rav4EV. NiMH batteries.

Here are just a few of the real folks who've driven on their original old-tech batteries for better than 100k miles:
http://evnut.com/rav_owner_100k.htm

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

Yes, old lead acid batteries but the same problems with range when using heat or AC in an electric car. I did love using the old S10 EV locally in the summer. Ten miles here and there, back home, plug in and back out again to the hardware store or lumber yard. A lot of fun but alas unsafe with 2,000 lbs of lead acid batteries on board!

My point is I really do love EV's but only as a second car in the driveway. Even the smallest ICE in a hybrid solves heat, AC and charging problems. The upper midwest and northeast winters are just to darn cold to own a LEAF as a stand alone car. All this being said the LEAF is a nice car and, with a little bit more pocket change, I would buy one in a heart beat.

· Ted (not verified) · 1 year ago

No matter how you slice and dice it, I won't be able to take this car to Tahoe or LA. I am a one car person and owning two cars (one for city/daily/work life) and one for road trips and weekend excursions is not reality in my world. The VOLT would be a 100% better fit in my life.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Great that there's finally a choice, eh?

· Nomoredeath4oil (not verified) · 1 year ago

No range anxiety for me. I will take my place among others who feel a 100 mile range is okay and as a benefit we do not have to buy gas anymore. If we all did this the US would not have to fight wars to keep oil supply lanes open and our children in the service would not be dying in the name of oil. The buck stops here terrorist.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

Maybe that 14mile/kWh is based on going downhill a lot more than uphill? Crawling along at 20-40mph is going to be really good for that car as wind resistance is a car's biggest enemy. Rolling resistance is relatively constant, but wind resistance is squared as speed doubles apparantly.
15mph - 45mph = 3x faster - 9x wind resistance. Luckily at 15mph in a streamlined car it's not much and 45mph is going to take a bit of effort... but go from 45mph - 90mph and you're talking a big increase in energy usage! 45mph -> 67mph - you've doubled the energy required.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 1 year ago

abasile, regarding your mountain driving ... take a look at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=309&hilit=1%2C000+feet&...

· abasile · 1 year ago

Thank you! I should have taken out my old physics textbook and done that calculation, as it's pretty simple. An additional 1.3 kWh per 1000 feet climbed means that our 16 mile, 5000 foot climb up the mountain is likely to require a bit less than half of a full charge in total, or more if we have the whole family in the car. That should be okay for us most of the time, though it will be comforting when a fast charger eventually becomes available at the base of the mountain.

As I previously mentioned, most of our driving does not involve that kind of elevation gain. On a day-to-day basis, we have a mixture of uphill and downhill at speeds ranging from 30 to 50 mph. With regenerative braking, I expect that an EV should be well suited for this.

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

Has anyone figured out the cost of charging the Leaf in the Bay Area? From what I understand the PG&E tiered system doesn't have off-peak rates. My wife and I are in tier one now but I am afraid that my bill will go way up if I plug in a car. So what is the cost or how many kwh will take. Thank for any help I can get.

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

Sorry about the grammar it is late in a world with young children.

· Nick Chambers · 1 year ago

CT,

No idea about the charging rates in the Bay Area (I live in central Washington state), but I'm right there with you in the late night world of young children!

· darelldd · 1 year ago

CT -

I'm *almost* in the Bay Area. Officially about 100' out of it. Still in PG*E territory. And I charge my Rav4EV for free! ;) Solar system of course.

But before my solar, I did pay for power. The trick is to get a tariff with Time of Use metering. I pay way less to charge my car off peak then I pay for power during the day. Look at E7, E6 or E9 to see what best fits your needs.

· CT (not verified) · 1 year ago

Thanks for the replies. I am going to put in a solar system prior to getting the Leaf. My four year old asked what solar power was the other day after we had someone give us a quote and my answer seemed to make so much sense I sold myself on getting a system installed. "It turns the light from the sun into energy," I said. What could be better? I just seems so obvious.

· Tom Saxton (not verified) · 1 year ago

abasile: Your calculation agrees pretty well with my experience in a Tesla Roadster. Going uphill costs about an extra 5 to 6 miles of range per 1000 feet of elevation gain. My most extreme vertical gain was driving up Mt Rainier, which I documented here: http://www.saxton.org/tom_saxton/2009/09/samm2rainier.html

· Tom Saxton (not verified) · 1 year ago

According to the facts presented in the article, the car arrived showing 14.7 miles traveled per kilowatt-hour of energy used under unknown driving conditions. As I understand it, San Francisco has some hills, so the previous driving could have been primarily downhill. After the author drove the car, that number was reduced to 13.6 miles.

From this data we can conclude only that the author got less than 14.7 mpk. Without knowing what interval was included in the pre-established energy number, we can only guess how much lower.

As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Asking Nissan to confirm the numbers is not evidence. To do this experiment properly, you need to do just as you would with a gas car: fill it up, drive (preferably in a complete loop so uphill and downhill balance out), fill up again and do the math.

My wife and I have ordered a Leaf, raising our hand, putting down the $99 deposit, and placing an order as early as possible. You can bet we'll do this experiment in careful detail as soon as we have possession of the car.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

And we'll be waiting to hear the results, Tom!

· abasile · 1 year ago

Thank you, Tom! Your trip to Mt. Rainier sounded like a fun experience, and it goes to show that EVs can do quite well in the mountains with sufficient battery capacity and good regenerative braking. With a Tesla, you obviously have much more range than a LEAF; as a mountain dweller, I'm hoping it won't be too long before an EV with Tesla-like range is as affordable as the LEAF.

Also, thanks to regen, our Gen III Prius is doing quite well at achieving high overall gas mileage (> 50 mpg) within our local mountain communities. This also suggests that EVs should perform very well up here!

· Ross R (not verified) · 1 year ago

Just wanted to throw-in a funny story about Range Anxiety;
A customer bought an electric scooter from me a couple months back; I called to see how she was doing with the scooter; Her husband said GREAT! yesterday my wife had to take me to the gas station on it because I ran out of gas in my pickup!
True story, don't ya love it!
Moral; we already live with and adapt to range anxiety...
cheers,
Ross

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Hey... so a poster board with this article was displayed at the test drive area for the Leaf at the SF autoshow this weekend. Of course it didn't have my responses. ;)

I'll be making a new evnut page and writing up my experience soon. I hope.

- Darell
evnut.com

· Tom Saxton · 1 year ago

Darell,

They had that same poster board up at the Seattle drive event. It's so disingenuous to post this blog like it validates an unreasonable range claim when it really just boils down to relaying what Nissan said.

We went through the info tour twice at the Seattle drive event. Both of the guides told the same story, almost verbatim, about driving a Leaf over from Seattle, going 12 miles but only using 3 miles of range.

The Leaf seems like a great EV. I don't know why they are putting these misleading statements out there.

Tom

· darelldd · 1 year ago

Tom -

Did you straighten them out like I did? I tried to keep quiet (but those who know me realize that NEVER works!) - and after so much disinformation, I had to speak up. After two comments, the guide asked, "who do you work for?" As usual, nobody believes that I"m just a guy with experience, and no "agenda" beyond wanting to get the truth out there. He didn't know about the public charging infrastructure that's already in place (Nissan will be installing the first chargers, you see!). He went on and on like this was the first electric car to have any modern conveniences.

Anyway, I tried to be pleasant about it, and also tried not to be too disruptive - but what I said really had to be said!

· Tom Saxton · 1 year ago

Darell,

I had a similar experience and was by far the most vocal person in the group, but didn't bust them on the range claim. I was really trying not to be too much of a pest. I'm such a big fan of the Leaf and I didn't want to come across as an anti-EV nutjob.

GM had similar, but less blatant, disinformation at their Seattle drive event. I managed to get my concerns about their obviously false promotional materials to one of the GM engineers (through Alexandra), who said they had yanked the problem poster board from their tour.

I suppose I should try to get through to someone at Nissan.

Tom

· Michael (not verified) · 1 year ago

While it is entertaining to see what an EV enthusiast can get out of a BE car, I more interested in seeing what the Leaf does at 75 mph on the freeway through the San Fernando Valley during the summer when it routinely gets to 100-108 degrees. I'm not interested in babying a car to eek out every last mile, nor am I interested in roasting.

· Michael (not verified) · 1 year ago

"This stands in sharp contrast to the Chevy Volt, which only ever uses 8 of its 16 kilowatt-hour pack."

Actually, the Volt uses 10.4 kWh of it's 16 kWh battery pack. The limited usage of capacity is to maintain battery life and capacity through it's eight year warrantied life.

· darelldd · 1 year ago

@ Michael -

How much interest do you have in lung disease?

Oooh. That wasn't nice.... but I hope it makes some sort of point. Eventually we have to look beyond what gives us totally carefree transportation, and instead focus on how we can maintain our transportation freedom without destroying ourselves, and everything we enjoy about our world.

Everybody would like to know exactly how every car would perform in their specific circumstances. All of our circumstances are different, so it'll take a while before we know all the answers.

· El Eficiente (not verified) · 47 weeks ago

According to Consumer Reports, the Leaf gets 3 miles per kwh in cold weather, and 4 miles per kwh in warmer weather.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/04/a-tale-of-two-evs-californi...

· EVNow · 47 weeks ago

@El Eficiente (not verified) · You don't have to go by what CR got - a lot of us maintain detailed stats on Leaf. Here is mine ...

Lifetime Wall to Wheels : 3.5 m/kwh, Leaf Dash : 4.3 m/kwh
June Wall to Wheels : 4.2 m/kwh, Leaf Dash : 5.1 m/kwh

· Brad Berman · 47 weeks ago

@EVNow - Are you seeing a consistent pattern of the LEAF dash showing a higher m/kWh number than the real-world? What methodology are you using to measure wall-to-wheels--so others can do a similar apples-to-apples comparison? Thanks.

· Tom Saxton · 47 weeks ago

Brad,

The LEAF dash shows battery to wheels, so it's always going to show more miles per kWh (or fewer Wh per mile) than the corresponding wall-to-wheels number.

We have a dedicated utility-grade meter in front of each EV charging station in our garage.

In the Roadster, I see 15% to 25% difference between wall-to-wheel and battery-to-wheel. For example, on a recent 161-mile drive up and down a 4,000 foot mountain pass, the car said I used 40 kWh from the battery and it took 50 kWh from the wall to charge back up to full. For that drive, I got 3.9 mi/kWh battery-to-wheel (254 Wh/mi) battery-to-wheel and 3.2 mi/kWh (310 Wh/mi) wall-to-wheel.

I'm glad to see EVNow reporting his LEAF numbers, and looking forward to more data points.

· EVNow · 47 weeks ago

@Brad

I blogged about this a couple of weeks back.

http://www.plugincars.com/economy-efficiency-nissan-leaf-my-experience-a...

Basically as Tom notes, Leaf shows us (what we are guessing) is the battery to wheels Miles/KWh. I also have the Blink charger which tells me the energy used during every charge. These two stats along with the odometer readings (that I note after every trip) gives me the stats that I posted above.

CarWings, gives a lot of information too - unfortunately those numbers aren't right. I don't know when Nissan will fix them - may be on your contact with Nissan you can ask them when they will fix CarWings (the obvious problem is Carwings miles/kwh is much higher than what the Leaf dash shows).

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