Exclusive: Chevrolet Volt Chief Engineer Explains Volt Drivetrain, Says "Volt is an Electric Vehicle"

· · 7 years ago

What is it about the Chevy Volt that seems to elicit such heated discussion? After an article on Motor Trend a couple of days ago elucidated the Volt's complicated drivetrain in more detail than we've seen before, the internet green car ether has spent a huge amount of time debating whether or not the Volt can be considered an electric car because of the mechanical connection between the Volt's combustion engine and wheels.

Indeed the conversation has ranged the gamut from "who cares?" to "GM is a bunch of liars."

The fact of the matter is that the Volt drivetrain is complicated enough and different enough that even us so-called car professionals are having trouble understanding how it works. And, in the end, the average person likely won't care how the car does what it does, just that it does what they want it to do. Whether or not the Volt will do what the market demands is clearly something yet to be determined—as it is with the Nissan LEAF.

So, after getting pretty fed up with the he-said/she-said internet banter and infighting going on in the world of alternocar geeks (myself included), I decided to reach out to GM and ask if they wanted to fully explain how the drivetrain works and defend why they think it's an electric car. After all, even the venerable Motor Trend seems to have gotten it wrong, so who else can better explain it than the engineers themselves?

As a result, I had a very insightful and eye-opening conversation with Andrew Farah, Chief Engineer for the Volt, in which the entirety of the Volt's drivetrain is laid out for all the world to see. Rather than simply transcribing that interview here, I've posted the entire audio clip for you listen to below. Initially there is a hint of defensiveness in Mr. Farah's voice, but after he gets down to explaining the Volt's engineering I think you'll find the discussion enlightening.

Some highlights of the conversation:

  • Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. "The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is depleted," he said.
  • The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive the vehicle.
  • Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its own. The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels.
  • Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it cannot operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors.
  • The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.
  • There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors.
  • Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.


· hsr0601 (not verified) · 7 years ago

From what I understand, Chevrolet Volt in general could be called an EV with some oil-friendliness inside. .

While major carmakers in the U.S. are playing a wait & see game, the American breakthrough battery technology by Boston Power found a home at a Swedish player ( 9-3 ePower electric family estate car ).
Critics say moving on to EVs is gambling, but I'd rather say status-quo would be just Sinking without swimming.

· evnow (not verified) · 7 years ago

"There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors."

This point is still confusing. Is this marketing speak or just splitting hair ?

· · 7 years ago

evnow, in some ways I do think this is just an issue with definitions and semantics (e.g. splittling hairs). But also, now that I've listened to my own interview several times, I think I really do understand why GM feels strongly that there's no direct mechanical linkage.

The engine can only be connected to the wheels through one of the electric motors. The engine power is sent into the shaft of one of the electric motors shaft and that electric motor is made to spin some amount in the opposite direction and then the result is that the engine can spin the driveshaft through the electric motor. The net effect is that the engine can turn the wheels, but only if the electric motor is made to spin (in the opposite direction of the engine spin) as well.

· DutchInChicago (not verified) · 7 years ago

See what we did is we build this electric car but then we started to worry that we would not make any money on selling spare parts and servicing because these dam things are so reliable so we added 2 old fashioned engines to the car. Clever or what.

· Hai (not verified) · 7 years ago

it's almost the same for Prius. while i can drive the current Prius for 1 mile without engine kicking in, so for the first mile Prius become an "EV"...so we can call Prius EV? i just don't see the logic. Prius also has two motor/generator and also has no direct connection to the wheel as well, both Prius and Volt linking engine, MGs via the power split device. everything that he say in the interview hold tru for Prius as well, except Volt get a bigger battery pack. truth is, the way Volt connect to the PSD is different than Prius because, they are either try to avoid Toyota's pattern, or for the given smaller enginer and larger motor, the connection need to change for efficiency.

look at http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ , Volt, by my classification, is a modified Prius, by defination, it's a hybrid, not EV.

· usbseawolf2000 (not verified) · 7 years ago

Volt is not an electric car because it has two power sources. It doesn't matter what drives the wheel and how much power. The official engineering definition looks at the power sources. It has a gas engine and battery pack. There is an exhaust pipe and gas tank. Name an electric car with an exhaust pipe.

Volt is a plugin hybrid, just like the PHV Prius. They both start out in EV mode and then the gas engine kicks in at some point. The point when the gas engine kicks in is different between the two but the concept is the same.

To be specific, both are series-parallel hybrids. This type of hybrid can blend power from two different sources. That's what Prius, other Toyota and Ford hybrids do.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

In the same way, there is no direct mechanical connection of ANY ICE to the drive-shaft. The ICE can only "drive" if the clutch is engaged and transmission gears are spinning various ways.

In ANY case, it is a Plug-in Hybrid, NOT an EV, any more than the non-plugin Prius is an EV.

Then, ALL ICEs would be EVs, since the battery and the electric (starter) motor can move the vehicle (a small distance).

· evnow (not verified) · 7 years ago

"The net effect is that the engine can turn the wheels, but only if the electric motor is made to spin (in the opposite direction of the engine spin) as well."

Interesting. So, bassically use the motor as a mechanical link to the wheels instead of an electrical link. Ofcourse that is a mechanical link.

Not that is matters much (except for all the misleading in the past years). GM should just say they changed the design to get better efficiency and be done with it. This "volt dance" is not better than the last ...

· · 7 years ago

OK, listened to the whole thing. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why he is so scared to admit that the ICE can drive the wheels through a mechanical connection. Sure it needs some resistance from the electric motor to spin the planetaries in the proper direction - but that's only to make the mechanical connection work! Some similarities to the Prius system in that way.

We don't care exactly how it works as long as it is the most efficient. How many times can we hear that it is too "technical" for us dummies? The point is that once again, the story has changed. I don't really care why. I'm just curious why they're so adamant to avoid saying it like it is. There's a mechanical connection from the ICE to the wheels. Big whoop. Why do they take offense at anybody who suggests this?

My day should be more interesting tomorrow. I'll drive the Volt and talk to the "engineers" on hand. Will I come away as a bully? More confused? Or a completely enlightened new customer? Only time will tell.

· · 7 years ago

Let's be clear about why GM is reluctant to admit that the Volt's ICE drives the wheels (in some capacity or another). The company totally missed the ball on hybrids and ceded any decent position in the hybrid market to Toyota, Ford and Honda. Of course, they don't want to use "H" word. In the meantime, the EV market is new and relatively open (with obvious and serious competition from Nissan, and others to follow).

And there are probably issues related to regulations and incentives of EVs vs. hybrids.

Regardless, the official nomenclature from the Society of Automotive Engineers will classify the Volt and the "extended range electric vehicle" as a type of plug-in hybrid. CARB also sees it as a plug-in hybrid.

So, the marketeers will do what they do, and will muzzle the engineers, but that's okay as long as you realize what's happening. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. For most drivers, the Volt will provide great service and a fun ride while using a very small amount of gasoline. It's a real achievement.

· · 7 years ago

"The engine can only be connected to the wheels through one of the electric motors. The engine power is sent into the shaft of one of the electric motors shaft and that electric motor is made to spin some amount in the opposite direction and then the result is that the engine can spin the driveshaft through the electric motor. The net effect is that the engine can turn the wheels, but only if the electric motor is made to spin (in the opposite direction of the engine spin) as well."

Just call me a glutton for trivia. If I understand the Volt drivetrain, a smallish G/M unit sits between the ICE and the PSD. Is this one unit that can be a generator or a motor depending on input, or is it two units -- the generator with a mechanical shaft input and electrical output, and a motor that takes electrical input and provides mechanical shaft output ? As you can see, I'm having trouble grasping the idea of going through a G/M without a mech/elec/mech conversion.

My comment about this entire brouhaha is that GM marketing has once again made a fool of itself by forcing the EV message in a PHV. Yesterday the GM mantra was "electricity is the ONLY good way to travel (40 miles a day)" Now it is "efficiency is king." Common sense says it is a dual fuel vehicle even before we argue about exactly when petrol gets added to the fuel mixture. Just because GM defines "performance" as less than 70 mph or assorted other conditions hardly makes it so. I could equally say that the Volt is *never* an EV vehicle because I always drive with the pedal on the floor.

I appreciate not having my intelligence insulted, but that might just be me.

· · 7 years ago

All good points, Brad. And I got a similar sense today. I got to talk to marketing folks as well as engineers. And I learned quite a lot. I didn't learn all that much about the car... but plenty about the stuff you've brought up here.

Quite simply, there is no question that there can be - and is - a mechanical connection from the ICE to the drive wheels. That concept can just be put to bed now. It is exists. It can be called something else, but it is a mechanical connection. And apparently it has always been there (duh, it would be stupid not to do it this way), but was "hidden" from the public for proprietary reasons.

It is too bad that they can't be proud of calling this thing a hybrid, since it is what I consider to be the first, real hybrid. Meaning something that truly runs on two fuel sources - unlike the "hybrids" that we have today that all run on a single fuel.

My experience today was a positive one. They really went out of their way to take care of me. Almost like I was somebody relevant.

· · 7 years ago

Well you had Lutz out there for a couple of years stating emphatically that the Volt genset never powered the wheels. He would say the Volt was different, it isn't at all like a Prius or any other hybrid. He was basically describing a serial hybrid that GM wanted to be known as a range extended electric. Well they were lying and they are still lying. They don't have a patent yet, they only just published the application on the Volts transmission. The fact is they couldn't continue the lying given their upcoming IPO. The SEC frowns on material misstatements and GM realized they has a doozy.

I knew something was odd from day one with the Volt. The genset has 1/2 the output as the peak output of the traction motor. That means the system would need to draw from the batteries to make up the difference when necessary and therefore the genset would need to replenish the battery. But GM would insist that was not the case, the genset didn't drive the wheels nor charge the battery. If that had been true, the math doesn't work. I wish GM had simply made a true serial hybrid and selected the Family 0 Turbo 9.5:1 compression, 140 hp (103 kW) @ 4900 rpm engine. That way they wouldn't need that convoluted transmission and the mountain mode hack. The genset performance would match the traction motor requirements.

· · 7 years ago

I don't believe the Volt needs the big ICE you speak of. With a hybrid who's electric motor can provide full power to drive, the ICE only needs to provide the average power consumption which would be a little more that that required for cruising. Since I assume cruising should be possible at 80 mph, this would likely only require an ICE that puts out 40 - 60 hp at it's most efficient operating speed and load. The battery+electric motor can handle the peaks if the battery is big enough to carry the car up the largest freeway grades in the country (I-70 W out of Denver or perhaps I-5 N out of LA) at freeway speeds (~75 mph)

· · 7 years ago

@ex-EV1 driver, the engine I'm suggesting is not big, it's the small 1.4 L turbocharged engine used in the Chevrolet Cruze. It gets 31 MPG and as a genset could power the Volts traction motor in all situations without any electricity from the batteries. Therefore they could remove some of the batteries, if they wanted to stay with a 40 mile range or increase the all electric range with the existing pack. Also, they could eliminate the complex transmission. I'll the weight of that transmission exceeds the extra weight of the turbo would add. Why they went with such a puny genset confounds me. Perhaps they did it so they could offer the turbo in the next generation as the Volt II.

· Johnny (not verified) · 7 years ago

I just drove the Volt in San Diego. It was great! However by the time it was my turn to drive, the battery was depleted so I got to experience the controversial indirect engine drive capability. It kicked in and out every so often and subtly felt like a gear change. At high speeds it seemed excessively noisy, then I got in my other car and realized the noise was about the same. Who cares if gas is used to generate electricity or direct power, the point is you want more miles with less gas. Maximize efficiency.

· · 7 years ago

Thanks for the feedback, Johnny. Yes, compared to the engine noise in the Prius, the Volt is definitely no louder (inside the car). In fact I found it quite a bit quieter.

· · 7 years ago

I'm not enough of an ICE expert to be able to do the tradeoffs between turbo and non-turbo so I'll stay out of that argument. All I want is an ICE that operates as efficiently as is technically possible - at a single RPM and power load.
Why bother sizing the ICE to handle the load by itself if the EV portion can handle it? I'd rather have a smaller, lighter, more efficient ICE since I don't want to use it any more than I have to anyway. There are only a few mountains in the country that would require Mountain Mode (I know, I live on one) and I'll assure you that they aren't going to appear suddenly and surprise anyone. Lewis and Clark mapped them out a few years ago so you'll know when to use Mountain Mode. If you do forget to set Mountain Mode, you'll just be crawling up the grade at 30 mph with the Semis - not exactly a fatal error but you'll probably remember next time.

· Jack Homen (not verified) · 7 years ago

The problem with GM is not admitting that the Volt is a machine too complicated to succeed and will allow for a an easy push back to their main staple of larger vehicles that require maintenace.
The had a winner in the EV-1, which they proceeded to crush after destroying CARB and the ZED mandate in California.
Bought then sold the NiHm battery technology to Chevron/Texaco to keep it out of ICE vehicles and continue the purchase, hydrocarbon fuel and frequent maintainance business model.
They have created a machine that will fail and allow them to say once again no one wants an EV.
No free passes to GM. They, as a corporation, have a long standing hatered for mass transit (rail - street car), electric powered vehicles and actively crush those who call into question the truth. Even sueing Honda and Toyota over the use of NiHm in their successful products. Sad commentary on our global and domestic mega corporations.
BTW Toyota RAV-4 EV are selling for 45k on ebay because they travel 120 plus miles on NiHm battery packs that have over 200k on them. GM could not crush them after all but they refuse to even acknowledge the EV-1 program so no surprise.
Jack Homen Former Chevy Guy (454 ci and all that)

· · 7 years ago

Jack -

Just as a point of reference, the Ravs are selling today for closer to 35k (from a high of over $60k back when they were about three years old). And the cars travel about 100 miles of real-world range (my record is 135 miles, but that's at a steady ~45 mph). And we only have one driver with over 200,000 miles. And he replaced his pack at about 150,000 miles. Still all great numbers, but I just wanted to give them a reality check.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

I just shake my head at people who feel they need to apply simple labels. God did not define "electric vehicle" or "hybrid-electric vehicle". You can use those phrases anyway you like. Who cares? Just look at the details of how the Volt is designed and how it operates. That's it. There is no need to boil all that down to a label. If you need simplification, ignore the details completely and just look at the Volt as a black box. You can put gasoline in the black box. You can plug the black box into an electric outlet to charge it. You can realistically choose to operate it such that you never need gasoline. You can realistically choose to operate it so that you never plug it in. It's your choice.

Are people angry that GM made this vehicle? Are people angry that it's not designed exactly the way they want it? Sad.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 7 years ago

I can't wait, my daily commute is about 15 miles, 30 miles back and forth. And I have access to a plug at work. So realistically I would never need the engine. And this is all about MPG, and the enviroment for me. I not an eviromental snob, by any means (Muscle car guy). The engine, in my opinion, is nice to have as a back-up. This EV, hybrid discussion is totally moronic in my case. I agree with mister labels.
I'm not a big fan of the Prius, or Insight. I don't like the engine starting and turning off, constantly. And anyway I used to get 52+ MPG with my 1979 Honda CRX HF, what happened in the last 30 years, Honda..
It seems like a step in the right direction, no matter how you look at it.

· Jayhawker91 (not verified) · 7 years ago

Just ordered my Volt today - and I can't wait. Test drove it a few weeks ago in LA at the Pacific Design Center. I just don't understand all the anger. It's a car. It uses less energy than virtually all automobiles on the road today to propel itself. Its net carbon footprint (both gas and electric - even from dirty coal production) is less than traditional automobiles. It drives surprisingly well. So maybe GM "lied". It's isn't exactly "they have weapons of mass destruction" lies, or "spending $700B will drive unemployment under 8% by 2009" lies. Why all the anger? I get it if you are angry that the government bailed out GM. But that has nothing to do with the Volt or its tech (other than maybe it enabled it to get built). It's a pretty darn advanced auto - designed and built by an American car company. I, for one, am pleased with that.

· Gary (not verified) · 7 years ago

A previous commenter said "There is no need to boil all that down to a label." But of course the label is the issue, because with the EV label the taxpayers get to subsidize a healthy portion of the selling price.

The "no direct connection" argument is blather; it's a planetary gear system, just like what's in your automatic transmission, just like what connected the engine to the wheels in every Ford Model-T(http://www.modeltcentral.com/transmission_animation.html). Instead of the usual transmission bands (a sort of brake) the Volt uses an electric motor to control the ring gear, but the Volt's internal combustion engine is no less connected to the drive wheels than what's true of virtually every car on the market today (and that old Model-T).

· Russ Finley (not verified) · 7 years ago

I'm a mechanical engineer and I understand perfectly what the chief engineer said. The gas engine does indeed apply mechanical torque to the mechanical drive train via a planetary gear system when needed. However, because this planetary gear system design requires input from two power sources to function (you need an engine and an electric motor or two electric motors applying power to the gear set to react one set of gears against another) it gives him a way to confuse people who are not mechanical engineers without actually lying.

"...you can turn on the engine to generate electricity (snip)...we ...there are situations where we will (pause) take some mechanical torque (pause) from (pause) the engine and we will actually react it against one of the other electric motors (pause) and then the sum of that comes out of the planetary gear set and goes to the wheels."

Engine>>>planetary gear set<<

· Russ Finley (not verified) · 7 years ago

Hmmm ...my sketch does not look like the preview and a lot of my post was truncated.

Engine>>>planetary gear set<<

· Russ Finley (not verified) · 7 years ago

Oh well...

· · 7 years ago

"but the Volt's internal combustion engine is no less connected to the drive wheels than what's true of virtually every car on the market today (and that old Model-T)."

That's not true. The Volt can run electric alone, and the engine is completely disconnected from the the drive wheels.

Also any car with a manual transmission, cvt, smg, and dsg does not have a planetary gear set.

· · 7 years ago

"So maybe GM "lied". "

Congrats on the new Volt purchase.

Should Apple be accused of lying because they didn't offer up all the details of their latest iPhone prior to launch? GM didn't lie. The people who say that are lying. GM just did not disclose everything about the car prior to their patents being completed, and testing confirmed that running the engine in parallel mode at higher speeds after the battery is drained, is more efficient and saves fuel compared to running it in serial mode. They have every right to make improvements to their product, both before and after launch. It's called being competitive, something GM should have done more of prior to bankrupcy. At least they are getting it right now.

· Got a Volt in Philly (not verified) · 7 years ago

The semantics aside, I drive Volt #2375 to work every day and it is an EV *experience* exactly 91% of the time (not just the 1st mile). I plug it in every night, have 2000 miles on it and have used half my 1st tank of gas. I do almost all of my driving in an EV state.

I dont have "range anxiety" per se, but I do like being able to take off for Costco without worrying if the battery is fully charged or not. If I DID have to worry about that, it would motivate me to get a 240V charging option ASAP.

· Got a Volt in Philly (not verified) · 7 years ago

PS - call it what you will, I love this car. Love it! A pleasure to drive, a ton of bells and whistles, and the only car I have ever owned where people stop me and want to ask about it!

· Cosco Member (not verified) · 7 years ago

As an owner of a 2011 Leaf and a 2012 Volt on Order delivery on 9/9/11 I will enjoy passing by all the people at the gas station. I have pulled my Leaf into a gas station twice after 1100 miles (one to plug in an address into the GPS and another to fill up my gas drinking mini van for my wife). Since I have an 11.2 kW solar system on my house I just feel good that I do not have to pay for electricity for my house, spa, two cars and I am a power using fool with 4 computers, 4 laptops and 3 televisions plus all the cells, ipod and lights.

If GM lied to me then shame on them, but I still like the fact that they are built here by US citizens. If the batteries are not made here then that is probably because we gave that capability to china, korea and other places. I made it a point to buy Solar Panels and Inverters that are Made in America as well. www.helpourcountry.us

My point here? Sorry got off topic!
We have brought a Volt home for two different weekends, and when we were trying to decide on which car to get that took advantage of self generated electric power, we started to look at the Leaf (made in Japan, but they were hit hard this year. call it charity) vs. Volt already on order since May 2011 then we went down the street and drove the Volt again. I can honestly say that the Volt is a nicer car and it meets the needs we have (bailout call it charity to the US). Though a little expensive it surely is much less expensive than the EV-1 if it would have been sold back in the day.

My brother in law had the great suggestion to get both and since our needs fit into the battery range of both cars, we did just that. I would have had to have a gas car anyway.

Knowing many are Chevy haters out there for many reasons, you keep hanging on to the past and watch as you children and grand children struggle to get good paying jobs. Nissan will build the Leaf here in 2012 or 2013, Ford EV in 2012/13. Our Leaf is a tween car until the Model S is out. It was available now cheaper then the Volt but go sit in both and see what you get for the money.

· Phillip M. Rolland (not verified) · 6 years ago

Can the chev volt be charged by four light wieght in line wind turbines. It would seem that in line light wieght turbines could provide a substantially charge that would increase the battery or increase power to the wheels.

· · 6 years ago

@ Philip - do you mean while driving? No.

· DesertDriver54 (not verified) · 5 years ago

I don't care what GM calls it. Bottom line is you radically reduce your dependence on oil and use transportation energy much more efficiently. I would say the Volt is "all of the above". I love this car, its versatility and the way it drives. Its purely an EV around town, and seems to act like a hybrid in gas mode because it still recharges the battery and runs sometimes purely electrically in gas mode, cycling the gas engine. I bought it because I have to drive a 240 round trip at freeway speeds occasionally and don't want to be stranded. This car is an amazing piece of technology. I can't find any thing to critisize.

· · 5 years ago

Ditto DesertDriver54. The Volt is an amazing piece of technology that fun to drive. It handles very well and its performance is satisfying and smooth. I can't find anything to criticize either.

· · 5 years ago

This is so much Obfuscation which GM finally stopped doing at least a year ago. Just because the engine works thru motor 2 (while its a generator) on its way to the ring gear does not change the fact that torque is transmitted from the running engine THROUGH the MOTOR2 shaft on the way to the ring gear.The engine is driving the wheels and charging the battery/and or providing juice for 110 kw motor 1.. If I was Andrew Farah I'd be ashamed, but he might have had corporate leaning on him. As I said, I bet this whole thing was contracted out anyway.. That female "head engineer" that described "Reactionary Forces" during the GM deep dive things made all the other GM people cringe.

The whole thing seems like a contract out job to me, being mostly designed by the same toyota subsidiary that makes the Synergy Drive for the Prius. That's why I always call these things Synergy Drives since its the same company that makes it, or at least that was the case in 2011 when I bought mine. At this point GM may be trying to manufacture it under license in the States and China..

This is a 2 year old issue now that pretty much everyone who cares has now investigated it and most have deduced how the thing works, since its only a modification of how the Prius works anyway. But one thing I still don't see is how did GM blowing smoke for over a year obfuscating manage to sell anymore cars?

They sure didn't fool any state regulators, which when NY State called them on the carpet, they dropped the whole charade.\\
The forbes article (none of these guys ever dare lie to Bankers) said 66 mph.

· · 4 years ago

Was the audio intentionally removed or is that an error?

· · 4 years ago

So the ICE rpm is not fixed at maximum efficency... as a generator to feed the main electric motor. I am dissapointed.

Either the generator/motor is too small to do that

and/or the ideal most efficient rpm wont produce enough hp so the main electric motor could run from the power from the generator only, all the time, at any speed.

But what do I know?

Still looking for a clear power train block diagram and

what really happens in each driving circunstance.

slow, fast, climbing, loaded etc

same as above but with a low battery.

"Some highlights of the conversation:" above is ok but...

btw "I've posted the entire audio clip for you listen to below"


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