OK, so its WAY slower than a gas version of the car, and can't do anywhere near the same number of laps on its onboard fuel supply (if it can even do 1 more??). And the point is WHAT, exactly??? Its proven that its completely impractical as a race car, and as a passenger vehicle.
Does Toyota Believe in Electric Cars?
We had great news last week: A Toyota electric car called the TMG EV P001 set a new lap record for EVs of 7 minutes, 48 seconds around the mighty 13-mile Nürburgring race course in Germany. But Toyota's real contribution to the TMG EV P001—or lack thereof—raises questions about the company's commitment to electric cars.
This Nürburgring time was very fast—matching the best gas cars, but it wasn't done with a production vehicle. And it wasn't a road car. It was a race car unfit to drive on public roads. It rides too low to the ground, so you can't compare its lap time with those of road cars. But it would be interesting to compare that lap time with what the same car would do, if it had a gas engine. Fortunately, we can do that, and the gas car is one minute quicker.
TMG EV P001, the record breaking Toyota electric race car
We can compare because that record-breaking Toyota car doesn't have much Toyota in it. The speedster started its life as a Radical, which is a British race car manufacturer, fitted with two motors from EVO, another British company that builds high performance motors. That same combination was used two years ago when students of the Imperial College built an electric car to drive the Pan American Highway. But the Toyota is significantly different. Engineers from Rational Motion, a spin-off of Toyota Motorsport GmbH, a German company managing Toyota's racing operations, made it much better than what it was in the hands of students from the Imperial College. Of course, the students were working on a budget. But no engineer from Toyota Motor Corporation, the Japanese company which builds the Corolla and the Prius, had anything to do with the TMG EV P001.
The electric Toyota RAV4 with Tesla drive train
When it comes to production cars, Toyota will soon launch an electric version of its popular RAV4 model. Like that race car, it won't be engineered by Japanese engineers. Toyota will do some validation work, but it will buy complete power trains from Tesla Motors. That electric RAV4 with a Tesla motor may end up to be a very fine car, maybe even a great automobile whose owners will be proud to drive, but outsourcing the most important components is not the Toyota way to do things. It never has been. When it comes to the Prius, everyone working at Toyota is very proud that everything in it was entirely conceived by Toyota's engineers. The company filed hundreds of patents to establish its unique know-how. But let's compare Toyota's approach to the RAV4 EV with how the other guys are doing.
When BMW decided to get serious about electrics, it rang up AC Propulsion. That company provided the electric drive trains for the Mini E, which gave BMW's engineers some time to develop their own technology—which they are doing. All future EVs from BMW will be developed in house. Japanese manufacturers also work like this. The Mitsubishi i and the Nissan LEAF are both totally engineered and built by their respective manufacturers. Honda's joining the electric bandwagon, and we can be sure that its forthcoming electric Fit will be a product of its very own engineers. So you have to wonder why Toyota doesn't do like its competitors.
The Toyota Iq electric prototype
When Toyota built the first RAV4 EV, more than 10 years ago, Toyota was a leader. Some people still drive them today, revealing just how good those cars were. Don't misunderstand me: Toyota is leading the world when it comes to the electrification of the automobile, but with its hybrids. In fact, the motor of a Prius makes more power than the motor of an Mitsubishi i!
So how come this company, now the largest car company in the world, doesn't have its own people producing its EVs from scratch, using all Toyota-developed systems? Toyota has thousands of super-smart engineers with the best labs available. It even has a advanced lab working on revolutionary battery technology. Actually, a few Toyota engineers are working on pure EVs, but don't get excited. What they're working on, an electric iQ (also known as the Toyota FT-EV), a 10-feet-long city car, will be low-power and low-range. The Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid? It will only do 13 miles on battery power. EV fans expect more from Toyota, especially in its own home market. I believe that most Japanese people would not be comfortable with the idea of an all-electric Toyota car using a motor coming from a foreign supplier. Couldn't a giant company like Toyota build a competitive electric car all by itself?
Comments
· Dave K. (not verified) · 36 weeks ago
Toyota does not believe in pure EVs yet, Nissan does. But that's OK, the electrification of the automobile is just beginning, and many of us are not ready to go cold turkey from our oil addiction. Prii and other Toyota hybrids have convinced a lot of doubters that batteries and electric motors do belong in cars and as time goes on they will accept more of the same. Toyota's cautious approach may win over more people in the long run than Nissan's go for broke headlong rush, or even GM's expensive 2 full size drivetrain Volt. I think it's great that the market is delivering a range of compelling solutions, pure EVs and EREVs for us, PHEVs and hybrids for those with different needs or less risk tollerence.
· KeiJidosha · 36 weeks ago
Smart Toyota has already figured out that other companies patent flags are planted on the technologies they would use. As you point out, they are not predisposed to share. And recent history has focused their attention back on their current customer base for now. Financially savvy, technically boring, they profit handsomely form ICE, and risk nothing while they dabble, and wait.
· Anonymous (not verified) · 36 weeks ago
For good overall insight read the book Internal Combustion by Edwin Black.
Just like GM, Toyota does not want to speed up the inevitable electrification of passenger vehicles because it goes against most of their business models. The major auto manufacturers profit mostly off of the fact that ICE cars have limited lives and require regular and escalating tuneups, maintenance and parts replacements. Pure EV's turn this model completely upside down. That is why both Thomas Edison and Henry Ford knew that EV's were the best vehicle for the American public. What was clear to them 100 years ago is even more true now with the motor, battery and electronics advancements.
Look at the evidence of Toyota and GM purposely dragging their feet on offering the technology to the masses. The Prius could have been plug in years ago. GM, after helping get the CARB to remove the requirement for zero emmision vehicles and destroying almost all EV1's, markets the Volt as "more car than electric". Through marketing/propagandizing telling their buying public that electric vehicles are not really cars.
The good news is that EV's time has come and both the new auto manufacturers and truly big picture, long term company's such as Nissan, Benz and BMW will lead and revolutionize the driving experience for all. Be sure to see the movie Revenge of the Electric Car when it's out this fall. You'll be excited and optimistic about the future. :))
· Anonymous (not verified) · 35 weeks ago
If Nissan 'believes' in pure EV's, then why not stop making fossil engines cars? My guess is that they would end up like Tesla - a reasonable product (although not ready for the mass market), but heavily in debt.
Regardless of battery technology improvements and vast sums of money, to the layman the Leaf has a range of approximately 100 miles, 15 years ago another electric car existed - and that too had a range of roughly 100 miles. Battery technology might have increased, but range hasn't and some people want more range.
· Anonymous (not verified) · 35 weeks ago
Sure EV's also went 100 miles 100 years ago but their performance and safety were almost nil. Current day, the range has increased several fold in the past 15 years along with performance. A Tesla roadster has a range well over 200 miles and a 0-60 time faster than almost any other production car. Their S sedan will be available next year with optional ranges up to 300 miles. Expensive relative to gas cars but not really for what you are getting relative to minimal maintenance and personal impact on your carbon footprint. Not to mention an EV's carbon footprint will improve every year as the grid cleans up. ICE vehicles pollute more each year as they age. It is telling too that the maximum range and performance is coming from a pure EV auto manufacturer not from the ICE ones.
The Benz/smart dealer in Tysons VA said that the 3rd generation EV smarts were regularly going 140 miles on a charge. It may be that the 87 miles they are specifying is a worst case real world number. Kind of like Leaf is spec'd at 100 miles but realistically year round most should safely figure 75 miles. We will know in 6 months when the next gen smarts are on the street but it is encouraging news.
Nissan told us in the first information booth of their traveling Leaf tour that you will have the option to upgrade your battery modules for better range once higher density models are available. That may well be the case for more EV's coming out which will provide another huge advantage over ICE cars relative to really long term car life. Many people sell their car by 10 years because all the other systems supporting the ICE fail faster than they are willing to pay to repair (exhaust system, oil seals, pumps, hoses,radiator, transmission etc.). When a car is no longer usable it gets replaced by a new one which represents a large environmental impact. Just like with the EV Rav4's still being used daily (and EV1 that would be too if GM didn't purposely destroy them) people will have have the option to refresh their batteries after ten years, have much better range and a car ready for 10 more years of service if they want!!
Major auto manufacturers know this and are fighting it. During the middle of the 20th century GM, Firestone and Shell Oil (?) were found guilty by the US supreme court of purposely buying up large city's clean low maintenance electric trolley public transportation systems and replacing them with polluting and regular maintenance, limited lifespan diesel buses.
For planet earth and the citizens of it, EV's represent a fantastic transportation opportunity.
· Wize Adz (not verified) · 35 weeks ago
Toyota believes in constant and incremental improvement, instead of revolutionary change. Just like GM, they only built electric cars in the 90s because of the mandate CARB.
What I expect to see over the next 5 years a kind of tortoise and hare race between Plugin Prius and everyone else. The range in the Plugin Prius will gradually be increased every year or two, leading GM to do another Volt-style "moonshot" in 5 years or so. And those of us who remain in the middle-class who really want an electric car will have already bought a LEAF.
It's not as exciting as what I'd like to see, but at least it's finally happening!
· Doug Korthof (not verified) · 35 weeks ago
We need to point out that Tesla, in developing its drivetrain and battery management system, ALSO turned to ACPropulsion. The Tesla is the third generation EV1, using the same inductive 3-phase motor, but using some of the BMS devised by ACP to deal with Lithium batteries (since their previous lead-acid supplier was bought up and degraded by Johnson Controls, from 55 AH to 39 AH). Tom Gage, who was working on electric airplanes from Aerovironment, decided to try Lithium on the T-zero (successor to the EV1), and eventually ACP made it work.
But don't forget the contribution of Alan Cocconi.
· Doug Korthof (not verified) · 35 weeks ago
Using NiMH batteries, the solectria sunrise demonstrated 220 miles range (later upgraded to 360 miles). GM tried without success to suppress NiMH, so it sold its control of NiMH patents to Chevron on Oct. 10, 2000; the next year, Chevron entered suit against Toyota, Panasonic et al, forcing an end to the use of NiMH for plug-in cars.
Our 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV still go 120 miles on the same battery pack pre-Chevron-lawsuit; imagine if the batteries had still been produced and improved.
The EV1 with NiMh went up to 160 miles on a charge, and that was without the higher-quality Toyota NiMH, just the low-quality GM-ovonics version.
· Robert Ackerlind (not verified) · 25 weeks ago
The 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV can go 120 miles but the New 2012 Plug-In Prius only 13 miles. Hmm I wonder if we could read the secret settlement Toyota made when Chevron sued them would it perhaps not allow them to develop ANY electric vehicles with batteries above a certain AH?. No full sized electric cars can be developed from Toyota? Thus they HAVE TO outsource this work?
· DrJohn (not verified) · 25 weeks ago
I understand BigOil will buy up patents, sue others, and do whatever they need to do to protect their interests. That's how the system is set up. I also believe (naively?) that because research continues to go on in manufacturing batteries based on other components and technologies, new batteries will be developed and it will be necessary for BigOil to suppress them as well (which costs money). Additionally, as oil continues to be ever-increasing in costs (unless they figure out how to get those gas-producing microbes engineered), sooner or later, EVs will be here. Even if the future includes gas-excreting microbes and an ongoing preference for the current business model, Internal Combustion engines, at some point, government is going to look at the "big picture" and decide that IC engines' down-side (e.g., health costs, environmental issues) make them more costly than battery-powered transportation. Business interests might not ever come to that conclusion (health-care costs don't dome off their bottom lines nor do contrainment/reconstruction costs associated with continued pollution), but hopefully we will elect people who can see past next-quarter profits and into next-decade profits.
· Tmac · 25 weeks ago
Does anyone have a Prius Plug In?
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Don't fret! Remember that the original concept behind the Prius was conceived by TRW engineers back in the '70s. Toyota waited until the patents expired, and then got stuck in. You may have to wait a bit longer before Toyota considers electric cars are more than city runabouts.