It doesn’t take long for a new electric car driver to start thinking about solar panels. The idea of running a car on sunshine, and thereby severing ties between driving and burning fossil fuels, is an exciting proposition—but where does a new EV driver begin the process of going solar? Earlier this week, SolarCity, a leading solar provider, announced a partnership with ClipperCreek, an EV charger company, to help make the process easier.
PluginCars.com has covered the benefits of EV+PV in the past—but the purchase decision for the plug-in car (and installing charging) and the buying process for the solar panels have been two separate things. SolarCity and ClipperCreek now streamline the process by installing the EV 240-volt Level 2 charger (starting at $1,500) when the solar panels go up—even if the customer has not yet bought an electric car. Think of it as a total home-vehicle green energy solution in one package. Businesses can also take advantage of the offer.
SolarCity says that electric car drivers will save up to 77 percent on vehicle fuel costs by charging up with solar power. The company calculates that a fairly heavy driver of a gas-powered car (getting around 20 mpg) currently pays about $230 per month. That cost goes down to $107 for charging up via the grid, and is sliced in half again, to about $54, when leasing a solar system from SolarCity.
SolarCity is taking a lead with this bundled solution—as it did with installing the world’s first solar-powered electric car charging corridor, between Los Angeles and San Francisco, in 2009. (The EV chargers, located at Rabobank branches along highway 101, now support the J1772 connectors common to new EVs, such as the Nissan LEAF.)
We should expect more tie-ups between solar companies, charger providers, and car companies. Last week, General Motors said it plans to put solar-powered charging stations on company buildings, including 24 of its North American dealerships—where customers can also purchase a Chevy Volt. The provider is Sunlogics, a company in which GM has invested $7.5 million.
How long will it be before all the dots are connected, and a consumer can purchase an electric vehicle, and all the means to produce renewable energy to charge it, via one-stop-shopping?
If you already have PV and an EV, please offer your guidance on how others can learn from your experience.
Bradley Berman is the editor of PluginCars.com. Brad writes about alternative energy cars for The New York Times, Detroit Free Press, Reuters and other publications. He is quoted in national media outlets, such as CBS News, ABC News, CNBC, CBC, and MarketWatch. Mr. Berman is a tireless researcher of the green car market. He is the transportation editor at Home Power magazine.
· Andreas (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
Brad,
nice post, but.
On a weekday my car isn't at home when the sun powers the panels. At night there's obviously no sun power. So commuters do not have any benefit from this solution, as long as there is no storage for the power at home. This may work for my employer if he's willing to let me charge my car at the office parking lot.
· Travisty · 41 weeks ago
SolarCity is installing a 6.02 kW system to my house in the coming months. When I heard this news I contacted my sales rep who gave me the prices - this includes install and permitting
ClipperCreek LCS 25 Amp Level II for $1750
ClipperCreek CS 40 Amp Level II for $4000
The 25 amp charger seems ok price wise but the 40 amp is very expensive.
Ford has said their charger - which is implied to be 40 amps because it can charge the car in 3-4 hours - will cost $1499 with install.
· kjd · 41 weeks ago
Brad,
PV + EV is a match made in heaven. My long term goal is to have 1 EV and 1 PHEV in the garage and a 4kw PV system on the roof. A 4kw system would cost less than 10 grand and supply enough electricity for both my wife and I to drive our normal routine every day.
Grid tied PV works great, just do it.
· Smidge204 · 41 weeks ago
Andreas;
During the day your solar panels would push power out into the grid where it is needed (during peak). This will "run your meter backwards" effectively giving you a credit which you then redeem at night. The actual electrons your panels produce do not have to go directly into your EV.
Depending on your arrangement with the electric company, you might actually benefit more by not being home during the day: Push power to the grid during peak when it's expensive, draw it back at night when it's cheap.
· Larry P (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
I'd like to do PV, but there is no part of my property that is sunny all day and I'm not about to go cutting down 70-foot 70-year-old oak trees to make that happen. What would be great is for some solar company to have a program where you could buy PV panels and pay for their installation in someone else's really sunny spot, like a shopping center roof, and then get credit for, say, half the power they produce.
· Max Reid (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
Hello KJD
Are you sure that a 4 kw system costs 10,000. I believe a wat costs $3.02 as per solarbuzz.com That means a 4 kw system should cost 12,000
I like your wording that PV + EV = Marriage made in heaven. Solar companies are hoping to hit $1 / watt within next 3 - 5 years. Even at $2 / watt, it will be cheaper than coal where a plant costs $2500 / kw. And it has the cost of coal whereas PV gets free sunlight.
· Anonymous (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
We already have a Solar PV system (5.6 kW) which is zeroing out the bill for both our main house and granny unit (all electric appliances too, including water heaters) thanks to Time Of Use (TOU) metering.
I've been playing with the numbers and it seems like if you buy enough additional panels to charge your EV up front, then they will pay for themselves in just a few years, but you've basically bought 30 years worth of fuel (I'm counting on the panels to outlast the EV).
Some quick napkin match:
$230/mo (for gas) x 12 = $2760/year for gas
Nissan Leaf needs 24 kWh to charge fully. Divide by 5 (our solar factor), you need 4.8 kW system to full charge every day.
But we only have a 50 mile commute. SO we need 2.4 kW system to offset charging usage.
2.4 kW system currently costs about $10000 (240 W panels + micro inverters).
So $10000/2760 = 3.62 years to equal gas costs you would have spent on an ICE.
After 3.62 years, you're charging that EV for free, and you're carbon neutral......
If you just want to drive for free (ignore carbon) and use TOU, then you only have a one year payoff period.
· Travisty · 41 weeks ago
@KJD and Max
If you DIY that's about the cost of the panels. Add inverter, mounting and wires and you're getting to ~$15,000.
Depending on your location, solar companies will run from $4.5 - $8 / watt to install your system
· Max Reid (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
Look at the BMW i8 (Plugin) and i3 (EV). They have carbon fibre body to compensate for the additional weight of the battery.
· Jim in Wyoming (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
Adding to an existing Sharp/Enphase system, I've been able to find panels, racks and inverters at $3.50/watt. That's an ultra-deal w/o ground, inside wiring, disconnect, envoy, etc. I'll do the labor. Don't forget the tax credit.
· Steven (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
If you have tons of space for panels, you might look at used PV. For most of us space is at a premium - and PV panels have been getting much more efficient. I installed my first 2 kw (AC) of panels 8 years ago. At the time they were about as efficient as you could get for a reasonable price - 150 watt a panel. Costco had 220 watt Grape panels that with the tax and local utility rebates would have PAID me $50 for each panel I purchased. Needless to say I would have jumped on the deal but for the couple of thousand dollar penalty I'd have had to pay for replacing my current system prior to the end of the period I agreed to leave them installed in order to qualify for the utility rebate. If you are still in the market Jan 1, 2013, drop me a line.
Most panels have either a 20 or 25 year warranty at the end of which they are still supposed to produce about 80% of their rated power when new. (If anyone knows how long PV is likely to last before it is guaranteed to drop dead I'd sure like to know.) Moral of the story - if you are lucky enough to have unlimited space for PV your costs could eventually be as low as: mounting rails, inverters and wiring.
P.S. I've had my LEAF since June 23rd. I've logged about 660 miles - using air conditioning constantly (this is Tucson in the summer, after all) and used 192 kw hours to date.
· Steven (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
Oh, I forgot the cost of the gas - or if you have an EV with a trailer hitch, electricity - to haul the old panels away from a space-constrained city dweller.
· VoltSkeptic (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
One advantage of charging with PV panels would be efficiency, since PV produce DC current and an EV battery wants DC current. If one could charge without going thru the Inverters (DC -> AC from the panels to the house system then AC -> DC in the car), one should get at least a 10% boost if you could get the DC direct to the battery.
However it is my understanding that only the CHAdeMO port is DC (and fairly high current) which isn't available for home use. Too bad...
· Christof Demont... · 41 weeks ago
There's a ton going on in terms of news on the EV + PV connection, far more than 2 years ago when I first started covering this synergy at SolarChargedDriving.Com. And it's only going to continue to grow as major auto players like GM, Nissan, Ford, Mitsubishi, etc. and major solar players such as SolarCity push this extremely logical and appealing synergy forward.
Now, if only EVs would finally get to Colorado so that I could actually walk the full walk, rather than just half of it -- the solar half, that is ;-)
BTW, in the 13 months we've had our 5.59 kW solar system, which cost us $8,000 out of pocket, we've banked 5,800 kWh of "extra" electricity, or more than 20,000 miles of driving in a future EV (3.5 miles/kWh). Our long-term dream is the same as "kjd's" above -- full EV + 1 PHEV, 20,000 miles a year of driving with 90% of it being solar electric!
· kjd · 41 weeks ago
The price of solar is coming down these days. The 4kw system I was talking about is listed here.
http://www.sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=pv_systems&id=1053&type=GT
Another company lists a 3.5kw system here.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/system/solaredge-15-astronergy-panel-gridt...
I am sure there are other companies that also have low prices and yes this is a DIY price.
KJD
· Michael · 41 weeks ago
Every year I go through the process of seeing whether solar panels make financial sense compared to utility power. Every year it comes back with it's a wash, even with all the tax incentives, plus I have to take all of the repair risk and perform the maintenance. From everything I have read, it adds $0 to the value of the house, about the same as a swimming pool. People just don't like to buy things that require maintenance. With my work schedule, I'm right with them.
At some point, I hope to see this change.
· Jim1961 (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
I'm an EE and for many years I have had friends ask me why solar energy is not in widespread use. I gave them the same answer every time. It's too expensive. Another question friends would ask is why EVs are not being mass produced. My answer was always the same. Battery technology is not developed enough to make EVs practical and affordable. It's realy quite amazing that both of these former obstacles to PV + EV are being knocked down at nearly the same time. I predict a tipping point within five years for PV and EV after which everyone and their brother will be clamoring for PV + EV.
· Steven (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
@Michael – I’ve had PV for eight years now and only had to do one bit of “maintenance”; I didn’t get the nuts on the mounting rails sufficiently tight when I installed the panels. (I don’t count occasionally hosing the dove dropping from a couple of prime roosting places.) I don’t have them yet but when my string inverters finally roll over I intend to install micro inverters which, I’m told, will report when there is an electrical or circuit problem beyond the skills of those of us who don’t know much about electricity to diagnose.
@ Michael, Jim1961 and ‘the choir’ (as in “preaching to the choir”) – There is no way to say this tactfully so I’m not even going to try. The oil we burn in ICE powered cars receives one of the most outrageous subsidies provided by the US government – human lives. Even if one just calculates the dollar value of ‘our’ lives using honest cost-benefit analysis – as far as I know no one ever includes that of our “enemies” – together with the cost of all the hardware ‘securing US energy supplies’ requires, EV + PV (or wind, tidal, etc) is already cost-effective. It would “make financial sense” and be “affordable” if Americans were required to pay the full cost of driving their ICE-powered cars. And note that I did not include the cost of moving LA, New York City and the other major coastal metropolitan cities inland if global warming advocates are correct. For the 90% of drivers who daily drive no more than 40 miles, EV is already “practical”. If they were driving EVs, the cost of their fuel might fall so low it was once again reckoned in just money rather than human lives.
· Steven (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
"the cost of their fuel might" - i.e. the remaining 10%
· Benjamin Nead · 41 weeks ago
Here's one worth sharing. Some of my colleagues at my workplace, Arizona Public Media on the University of Arizona Campus, produced a video & web page story on the 200kW solar PV array on top of this parking garage . . .
http://ondemand.azpm.org/videoshorts/watch/2009/8/26/kuat-ua-solar-garage/
The 2nd Street garage, in fact, is just a few hundred feet from our broadcast facility. Ecotality is due to put a couple of Blink chargers up there fairly soon. One can imagine that this will be just the beginning of solar powered EV charging that will be happening all around the campus.
Parking on the roof on a hot summer day used to be a drag. But now, with those PV panels up there, there's a real purpose behind that new shady area.
· Jim1961 (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
@Steven. I could not agree with you more. The price of fossil should absolutely reflect ALL of the external costs.
· indyflick · 41 weeks ago
Prior to going solar, we spent months getting our home and lifestyle as energy efficient as possible. For example, we now often use a whole house fan rather than AC, all lighting is CFL, installed power strips to eliminate vampire loads, etc. I used a Kill-A-Watt meter and Google PowerMeter as my only tools. The net effect was we were able buy a smaller and much less expensive PV array to offset the electricity for our home and LEAF. The other thing I would point out, is when you look at the economic case, a PV array is capital asset added to your home. So your home is now worth more, and likely somewhat more desirable, versus a comparable property without a PV array.
· Michael · 41 weeks ago
I hear a lot of talk about the "true cost" of oil. I think most people would be shocked at the true cost of just about everything, both financial and environmental, and the countries that are supported by our consumption. You may not want to know.
· dgpcolorado · 41 weeks ago
@Indyflick, Yes, my tiny 700 watt array supplies about 70% of my annual electricity usage because, like you, I was already very efficient (99th percentile on lowest household energy usage according to the Energystar "Home Energy Yardstick": https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=HOME_ENERGY_YARDSTICK.sh... prior to installing the solar array). [However, one downside of a small array is a higher cost per watt, because of reduced economy of scale.] I plan to double my array when I get an EV but my local power coop won't let me do it now because they limit net-metering solar/wind installations to no more than 120% of annual usage.
But I think that Michael is correct that a solar array doesn't seem to add much, if anything, to the value of a house. I work at my county assessor's office (as a volunteer) and the appraisers here do not count PV in figuring valuation because there is no data to support higher selling prices of houses that have it.
As for maintenance, mine is voluntary and I enjoy it:
• I adjust the angle of my array 10 times a year, from 15º in summer to 65º in winter, to optimize production, which is easily done with a pole mount system like mine. (FWIW, fixed arrays usually use one's latitude as the optimum angle.)
• I wash the dirt/mud off the panels on occasion when we get mud rain/snow due to major dust storms upwind in Arizona and Utah (the same dust that is causing the mountain snowpack to melt earlier than it did years ago).
• I pull snow off the panels as needed, although it will eventually melt and slide off on its own. I find that a window squeegee on a long painter's pole works well for that, without damaging the glass.
Other than that, I've had zero maintenance. The PV array (Sharp 175W panels) has withstood significant wind and hail storms without any damage at all. I believe that the panels are rated for golf ball size hail.
· Michael · 41 weeks ago
Here's another thing that gripes me, and proves the government really doesn't care about renewable energy. I should be able to buy into a real estate investment trust, that has land and a PV array out in the desert, and I should get the same tax breaks and utility bill offsets. What difference does it make if my panels are on my house or at a remote site? When I move, my electricity generation offset would then move with me. If my house is shaded with trees, buildings, or overcast, it wouldn't matter. I could still have solar power, MY solar power. The REIT would do the maintenance and repairs, which is much more efficient, since it is at a central location. The price would no longer be determined by some government bureaucrat trying to play God.
Why isn't this allowed? Because the government and utility monopolies don't actually care about conservation, green jobs, and renewable energy. It's a bunch of hot air. They only care about maintaining their Rolls Royce pay and benefits, and pandering to their corrupt union cronies, at the expense of everyone else.
· Steven (not verified) · 41 weeks ago
There are probably no simple answers to anything but the one to the question of ‘why the government doesn’t really care about getting off oil’ that I find most intriguing is spelled out in (I believe) Wm. Clark’s “Petrodollar Warfare”. The quick version is: the country’s ruling elite frittered away all the gold it accumulated selling European imperial powers the means to slaughter each other during the first half of the 20th century. So Henry Kissinger cleverly negotiated with the Saudis to have oil replace gold as backing for the US dollar. The Saudis had lots of oil and the US government had or had plans to acquire lots of debt. Cut the oil companies and the merchants of death in on the deal and everybody who counts politically was happy. The classic on the subject is Dr. Michael Hudson’s “Super Imperialism”.
So the bottom line is: there is no bottom line for bankers or “America’s Sixty Families” – another classic written in 1936 by Ferdinand Lundberg. The ‘money power’ has been converting the country’s real wealth into cash and sending it overseas as exported jobs and bombs for a half-century As Dr. Hudson says “The product of Wall Street is debt” and as Steven says ”they don’t give a rat’s behind who holds it.”
So until we change the rules, PV, EV and every other technology that makes sense according to the laws of physics won’t make sense or be “cost effective” according to the laws of bankers under which we now live.
· darelldd · 41 weeks ago
> I have had friends ask me why solar energy is not in widespread use. I gave them the same answer every time. It's too expensive.
The better answer is that the alternatives are too cheap. We don't pay for the damage that our other energy sources cause, so they appear cheaper. In this, we have failed.
· darelldd · 41 weeks ago
@ Michael
> Every year I go through the process of seeing whether solar panels make financial sense compared to utility power. Every year it comes back with it's a wash, even with all the tax incentives, plus I have to take all of the repair risk and perform the maintenance
My educated guess is that you are only using the numbers that make the answer come out the way you want. And part of my guess is helped along by your comment about the "maintenance." I'm at year ten with zero maintenance... on a system that paid itself off the moment I turned it on.
In my calculations, I didn't even both with the math of $4/gallon gas avoidance from my system that fuels my EV. It was as simple as the fact that before PV, my power bill was over $70/mo. After PV, my payment on the loan for the system was right at $70/mo. I have long since paid off the loan, so it is 100% gravy for me no. If I also consider that I'm getting free "gasoline" from the system, well, you can see how rosy the picture truly is.
And for fun, think about some of the benefits of PV that do NOT have a direct cost associated with them. Are those worth anything to you?
· Michael · 41 weeks ago
"My educated guess is that you are only using the numbers that make the answer come out the way you want."
Think whatever you want.
Did your calculations include depreciation, opportunity loss and time value of money?
· darelldd · 41 weeks ago
> Think whatever you want.
Shucks, thanks Michael. I'm happy to have your approval to think. Recall that I clearly mentioned that this was my guess. It is "educated" because I sell PV systems for a friend and think about this stuff all the time, not just every once in a while.
I'm wondering what your figuring used for the ever-increasing price of dirty grid power in the future? Does yours take anything into account for the damage caused by the same dirty power, or do we continue to socialize those costs? Regardless... even with all of that ignored, today I have WAY more energy money in my pocket than I did before my PV system was installed. And from here on out, I pay $70 per year for all the electricity that my house uses, and about 11,000 miles of automotive travel per year. The loan for the system has been completely repaid, and I'm way ahead. There was nothing else I could have invested in that could so securely give me the return that my PV system has.
Best,
Darell - EVnut.com
· Michael · 41 weeks ago
"My educated guess is that you are only using the numbers that make the answer come out the way you want."
"I sell PV systems "
My jaw just hit the floor. Some sales pitch. May I suggest one less combative?
· darelldd · 41 weeks ago
I don't have a sales pitch. I don't actually "sell" - I facilitate for those who already understand the benefits and already want PV. I only help people who come to me. Shall I cross you off the list?
Just because I'm annoying doesn't make me wrong... as another friend/member here has said before.
· Paul (not verified) · 34 weeks ago
I put in a 4KW PV system a year ago in MD. Since I am a planner by profession, I sized my system for an eventual EV. I got about 1100 KWh extra in a year or good for about 4K miles of driving. I fought the utiliies in MD and was successful in getting the MD PSC to agree to initial 200% of the previous years residential load using the argument that folks would want to oversize for EVs. Utilities fought it every step of the way but final MD PSC regulations will memorialize the 200%.
· ex-EV1 driver · 34 weeks ago
Great Job Paul!
Its visionary pioneers like you that will allow our society to continue to advance.
Thanks
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I've installed PV and have lots of extra power. Rather than sell it back to RM Power for peanuts, an EV is a desirable alternative.
Looking at a Polaris Ranger EV LSV. It has 4-wheel drive and is snow ready. Problem is, with tags, insurance and short battery life, pay-back is marginal, even at one penny per mile.