Chinese Vehicle Makers Arrive, With Electric Cars Not Far Behind

By Laurent J. Masson · February 22, 2012

Toyota Prius with a plug-in kit using Chinese Thunder Sky cells

Toyota Prius with a plug-in kit using Chinese Thunder Sky cells

The auto industry has long feared the arrival of a Chinese electric car that would be vastly cheaper than anything domestic brands could make. But that car has failed to arrive so far. A Chinese car powered by gasoline has not even arrived yet. Geely should start selling in the U.K. later this year, and one can buy a Great Wall pick-up truck in Italy, but as of today, it's impossible to buy a Chinese gasoline car anywhere in America or in western Europe. Was the fear unfounded? Has BYD, the most aggressive Chinese electric car manufacturer, changed its plans to sell EVs all other the world?

Not at all. The Chinese manufacturers are coming—actually they're already here. We didn't see them coming, because they came through the small door. It's the smaller guys who have entered western markets. In France, it's possible to buy a kit to convert a Prius into a plug-in hybrid—a 4-kWh battery pack sits below the trunk). It uses Chinese Thunder Sky battery cells. Then there was that Oscar Eo plug-in hybrid prototype that competed in the Dakar rally-raid last month. It too used a 52.5-kWh pack of Thunder Sky batteries, though that company has changed its name. It will now sell its products under the name of Winston Battery.

The Oscar Eo plug-in hybrid prototype with Chinese Winston batteries - Picture from Oscar Latvian team

The Oscar Eo plug-in hybrid prototype with Chinese Winston batteries - Picture from Oscar Latvian team

The Chinese manufacturers have an edge over their occidental competitors here: they don't mind selling their products to anyone who wants to buy them. America and Europe have great battery manufacturers—A123 in the U.S., Saft in France. But it's impossible to buy their products unless you're a large company. They explain their batteries are very sophisticated material, and that they may get dangerous if handled in an inappropriate manner. It's laughable to hear this in a country where a 14-year old can buy gasoline to fill up his moped. That same 14-year old can buy matches too. In some places, if he asks politely he'll get them for free. Chinese manufacturers are winning customers the world over because of this low key approach. No customer will be sent away for being too small. Overall sales of Chinese battery manufacturers may not amount to huge sums, but they already have many more customers than western companies which are only making a handful of deals each year. For the guy with a do-it-yourself project of converting an old car into an EV, the choice is easy. Few people will hesitate between American or German lead-acid batteries and Chinese lithium-ion cells.

2 models of Chinese scooters available on the French market - Pictures from VEPE France

2 models of Chinese scooters available on the French market - Pictures from VEPE France

Then, there are the scooters where there's hardly any choice. Two American start-ups (Brammo and Zero Motorcycles) are trying to offer choices at the higher end of the market, but all the cheap electric two-wheelers are coming from China. There are quite a few of them available in Europe or America through small importers. There isn't a Chinese electric scooter that is fast, or one that's exciting to look at, but thanks to a regulation that has banned gas scooters in some of China's largest cities, Chinese electric scooters manufacturers are now the largest in the world. Nobody expects a western competitor to beat them ever. Will the electric car follow the same road? The Chinese government is assuredly dreaming about it.

About the author

I've been covering the green automotive scene in Europe since 1998. I started on the web with http://www.moteurnature.com/ in 2002 and I have interest in all kind of green personal transportation. Of course, I'm a big fan of electric car technology (that's why I'm here!), but the electric car I own (an old Peugeot) ...

Full bio · 253 posts

Comments

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

I agree with the statements in this article and I think that Chinese EVs will make their way to the US and Western Europe eventually. The only defense that the domestic auto makers have against this is to make really good, affordably priced EVs and plug-in hybrids. If the domestic auto makers don't do this Chinese EVs will push them off the road. And they will push ICE's off the road as well as the price of oil increases.

I think A123, Saft and others have dropped the ball big time by only trying to support the larger players. Selling batteries on the retail market is hardly an unprecedented thing and yet they have refused to do it. And they have refused to support the smaller manufacturers. To say that that smaller players don't know what to do with lithium batteries is silly. And A123 may pay the ultimate price of going out of business as a result if Fisker goes under. Thunder Sky, or Winston Battery, is not going to go out of business.

But one contrary thing is that BYD continues to disappoint. They were supposed to release their E3 US crash testing data in the fall of 2011 but they have not done so.

· Andy Chu (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

This is Andy Chu, VP of Marketing & Communications at A123. It is untrue that it is “impossible to buy” A123’s products unless you’re a large company. A123 serves customers in one of three ways:
1. Custom solutions: if the application is a good fit and it makes business sense, A123’s engineers will design, develop, and produce a custom solution for the customer. Admittedly, this is usually for larger customers that can either afford the non-recurring engineering (NRE) expense or have sufficient volume that it is profitable for A123 to spread the development expense over many units sold.
2. Standard solutions: A123 sells standard lead acid replacement batteries, called our “ALM” line. These off-the-shelf solutions can meet the needs of many customers and are beginning to be distributed through partner channels.
3. Value Added Channel Partners (VACP): if the custom or standard solution from A123 is not appropriate, we may refer you to a Value Added Channel Partner. Our trusted strategic VACP’s have the knowledge and technical capabilities that are required to design and integrate advanced solutions using A123’s cell technology. See http://www.a123systems.com/solutions-commercial-vacps.htm

We’re trying to serve our customers in the way that is most appropriate for them. Given finite engineering resources, A123 can only provide custom solutions for certain customers. The VACP program helps bridge that need and ensure that the customers’ needs are met as quickly, safely, and cost-effectively as possible.

Regarding the safety point: the reality is that not every customer who buys cells or modules knows how to make a safe pack. When batteries experience incidents, it is invariably the cell supplier that is blamed for the problem, even if it was not the cell supplier’s fault. We have had a number of issues over the years where batteries failed due to improper third-party design or manufacturing, not because of A123’s cells. It is impractical to review every design or to visit every potential customer’s location to review their assembly and safety procedures. We have done that for certain partners (VACPs) and thus trust them to use our products safely and to build packs from them. High voltage systems, in particular, are not toys. They can be dangerous if proper safety procedures are not used, regardless if it is a 14-year old or a seasoned engineer who hasn’t worked on high-voltage systems in the past. It may be conservatism from a company that has a reputation to protect, but I hope you’ll understand that there are very legitimate reasons for A123’s caution in this area.

To help us connect your inquiry with the right party, please fill in the Contact Us form on the A123 website:
http://info.a123systems.com/contact-us-select-application/

· Designer (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

Hi Andy,

From A123 Web site:
- “123 Systems no longer offers any cells or battery systems for electric vehicle conversions.”
- “Products sold under the brand names A123Racing, Enerland and PolyQuest have been discontinued.”
- AMP20 Energy Modules: Designed for plug-in hybrid and electric vehicle applications - * Modules are not available for consumer use or aftermarket conversion kits

A123, as a manufacturer, failed to provide necessary product documentation (as “Best Design Practices”, “White papers”, "Design Guide"…).

So, as a small designer, I’m forced to use costly VACPs that won’t deal with me.

How VACPs acquired necessary knowledge/experience in designing/using A123’s cell technology?

Does A123 provide any training how to design/use their product? I’m interested in vehicle conversion application.

Thank you

· Laurent J. Masson · 14 weeks ago

My apologies to A123 Systems, I see that it is easier than I thought to get A123 cells, but with the mention: "Packs are not available for consumer use or aftermarket conversion kits" on several pages of its website, the company clearly shows that individuals or small companies are not its target customers.

It's very different with Chinese manufacturers because their sales people don't even want to know what their customers do with their products.

>designer:
When you go to an auto parts store to buy a camshaft or a water pump, they won't explain you how to fit it into your car. If you don't know how to do it, you just don't buy one.

I believe A123 Systems provide good product documentation. If you buy Chinese cells, you will get much less, and it will be written in Chinese English that will most likely be meaningless.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

I am glad to see A123 respond to this thread. It is important for them to know that smaller parties working on smaller projects now can lead to much larger sales down the road. A few years of following that philosophy is why Thounder Sky's sales are so big now and why they are in so many products worldwide despite the fact that A123 has a better battery. I would bet that a majority of the products that are using Thunder Sky now would have preferred to use A123 from the begining. Over the years I have heard a very large number of people complain that they could not get a A123 pack or even cells. And so they have gone mostly to Thounder Sky. This has not only been for car converters but also a number of startups or people doing a project to see if they want to make a startup out of it. Many of these people do not even bother to contact A123 when they encounter the A123 website. There isn't a place there for such people to figure out if the A123 batteries will work for them and, if they do, to order them. People are busy and if A123 wants their business they should make it easy for people to evaluate and purchase their products.

If A123 is concerned that smaller players may not have the knowledge to use the right equipment in concert with their batteries or to use the right techniques or practices they should absolutely pull that information together for people to use their products. Because A123 only has to do it once instead of each customer going through that process. And that way A123 can choose the right components and configurations to recomend that are the best match for their battery. If A123 where to do this they would sell more batteries in the near term and be in more products in the long term.

I don't know much about this VACP program that they have. If it is agressive enough of an outreach program then A123 might see some real benefit from it. I hope so for their sake as I would like to see them really take off. I am on your side A123. The people who want to buy and use your product are on your side too.

· jmac (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

Laurent,

Thanks for your articles about what's happening with electric vehicles in Europe.

Since this post is in part about batteries, I thought I would mention that the website http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/ has over 230 battery articles (with photos) in its archives. It is the best collection of battery articles I have found so far.

Simply go to the home-page. You will see at the right of the home-page a list of categories. Just hit the batteries category (or whatever might interest you)

I have spent a fair bit of time trying to find EV sales totals for Europe, In the process I found two French websites. You may know of them, but if not, perhaps these will be of help to you.

http://www.automobile-propre.com/dossiers/voitures-electriques/chiffres

http://pro.largus.fr/s_informer/psa-et-mitsubishi-dominent-le-marche-du-...

Bonne chance et à bientôt

jmac

· jmac (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

Laurent,

I forgot to mention another site that might be of interest to you. It is a site that covers sales for all vehicles. It covers 160 countries. It's called Best Selling Cars - Matt's Blog.

For large auto markets like France and Germany, it is quite thorough but less so for smaller markets.. It does not have a specific category for electric vehicles but rather lists sales by make and model only. At the right hand side of the homepage is the list of countries to choose from..

Below is a link to the homepage.

http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/

Here is a quick link from the same website under France: Full Year 2011, (All 392 models sold).

http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2012/01/21/france-full-year-2011-renault-...

I recently checked to see how things were going in Norway on this same blog and was surprised to see that EVs had captured 2% market share in Norway. just counting the Nissan Leaf last month at 1,8% and the iMiev. at 0.2%. How many Peugeot and Citroen iMiev were sold, I don't know. Other electric cars are also sold in Norway such as the Kewit Buddy, Think City and so on. Last year I think 22 Tesla Roadsters were also sold. Norway seems to have caught the electric car bug,. Tesla announced recently that they had more reservations for the Model S from Norway than any other country with the exception of the U.S.

Any information you might have regarding European EV sales would, I am sure, be appreciated by electric car fans in the U,S,

· Sparky (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

Is the extreme caution exercised by A123 not selling to the general public a lawyer speaking in a litigious society?

Why Thundersky can do it and A123 can't is not comprehensible? The analog is like not bother to bend over and pick up the dollar bills on the street in front of you.

I agree with alt-e, put together some good application notes and a bullet proof waiver, do it right and do it once, many can benefit countless of times. Setup a webstore run by one or two employees (job creation). Why not? This has got to be a positive ROI. The torrent of the mighty Colorado river is made up from individual rain drop.

The intangible return is building a dominant reputation for A123 around the world. A123 got to re-examine its business plan. I have heard so many times from people that they can't buy A123 battery cells.

· Larry, Richmond VA (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

Certainly, in a rational world, any small startup or even any individual could buy an A123 battery to build a vehicle. There are thousands of much more dangerous products readily available: guns, chainsaws, vehicles of any kind, for that matter. Being injured in a traffic accident while riding your electric bike is surely hundreds of times more likely than being injured in a battery fire. But then you look at the hysteria whipped up after the Volt fire, and you see what A123 is up against: potent political players who know how to exploit such incidents and will do just about anything in their power to derail EVs. Add to that the threat of litigation and I can understand why A123 wants to keep pretty tight control over what's done with their products. Chinese manufacturers are somewhat isolated from these forces. It's a tough choice for A123, but seems to me ceding the startup market to CALB and ThunderSky poses the greater risk.

· MichaelS (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

I'm surprised BYD has been as disappointing as they have been so far. Warren Buffet invested a lot of money in this company and back then I remember reading he expected them to have a commercially viable car ready for the US market by 2012. I can't see that happening now in any form other than a few prototypes.

· Laurent J. Masson · 14 weeks ago

We talk about A123, but it's only one manufacturer. I chose this company because they're making ones of the best cells in the industry, but the other manufacturers aren't better. You can't buy cells from Enerdel either, and it seems the only American batteries an individual can buy over the counter, no questions asked, are Optimas yellow. They were fine 10 years ago, but today we want more.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 6 days ago

Well if we had slaves working in the use we could compete. For now we just have to hope that the slaves of China rise up.

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