The Challenge for Plug-In Cars

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

The automotive landscape is changing. More choices are coming and that promises to be the watchword for the coming decade. Buying a new car will no longer be: What engine do you want? What model do you want? What options to you want?

The options will be the focal point of choice. And the options will be the type of powertrain and fuel you choose for your new ride. I took a tour in January through some of those choices and came away with a new appreciation of the challenge that plug-in vehicles are facing and will continue to face in the marketplace.

The event was called "Future Cars: Future Technology"; it was organized by Western Automotive Journalists, a 20-year-old group of auto writers (and photographers and videographers) based in Northern California. During the day, panelists discussed the long-range future of automotive technology--one panel talked about whether automated cars like the ones Google is running are likely to take over our highways; a second panel of engineers from the auto companies explored the variety of options they were researching for future cars.

But the real fun was outside where journalists could drive a variety of vehicles that illustrated the direction the industry is heading. I was already familiar with the fuel cell vehicles (the F-Cell from Mercedes and Toyota Highlander FCHV) as well as the electrics (the Mitsubishi i and Nissan Leaf) and the plug-in hybrid (the Chevy Volt), so I chose to look deeper at some of the other contenders:
*Buick LeCrosse eAssist
*Honda Civic Natural Gas
*Mazda3 Skyactiv
*VW Passat TDI

These four vehicles represent a good cross-section of what may keep plug-in cars a "nice to have" technology rather than a "must-have." In order, they represent a so-called mild hybrid, a natural gas model and advanced gasoline and advanced clean diesel models.

The Buick is a large car, though classified as a mid-size, and feels it. Even though it has a four-cylinder engine, the battery assist adds to its launch power and provides not only good acceleration, but also 25 mpg in town and 36 mpg on the highway. And the whole package retails at about $30,000.

The compact Honda is deceptive. It looks and drives like the gas and hybrid versions of the Civic, but since it is fueled by natural gas, delivers 27/38 mpg fuel economy on a fuel that costs about half of what gasoline does per gallon. It retails for about $28,000.

The Mazda3 is a spunky compact with great performance. But even with that performance, the advanced gas engine and reworked transmission (and some other improvements) will deliver 28/40 mpg but retails for only about $19,000.

The Passat TDI, which was just named Motor Trend magazine's Car of the Year, is a mid-size car capable of delivering solid performance and 31/43 mpg for about $26,000.

The price points and performance of these models point us towards a challenging future. As tempting as the new technology of plug-ins is and as good as long-range fuel savings might look (and as enticing as avoiding direct fossil fuel consumption is), the advances in internal combustion engines, particularly if they're found in larger vehicles, are going to present consumers with some tough choices. It looks like the easy (as in easy on the pocketbook and with little lifestyle change) choices may be for more incremental changes in the near-term.

Comments

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

Good points in this article.
However, none of the technologies mentioned offer any form of sustainability. They all require petroleum.
EVs and plug-ins will work for the foreseeable future, even after we've drained, dug, or sucked the last drop, lump, or puff of petroleum.
They will, of course, offer a huge distraction to the population who doesn't comprehend the difference between high mpg and sustainable energy.
There's also the performance aspect of the electric motor which, of course, hasn't been exploited at all by the large auto manufacturers seeking to prolong their unsustainable product lines as long as possible. Once Tesla, Nissan, or some other OEM starts producing EVs in different body styles that are affordable and offer good performance, it will be game over and nobody will want a gas guzzler except when they absolutely must carry a lot of energy with them. At that point it will likely be a real flex-fuel diesel or gas turbine that can burn different kinds of bio-fuel or synthetic fuel that can be made with sustainable energy such as solar.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 ddriver Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I'm afraid "sustainable energy" is high on the purchase criteria for a very small segment of the car-buying public. High mpg is retaining some traction, which (along with basic financial constraints) is why I think plug-ins are going to take a much longer time to have an impact that some are predicting.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
I agree, broad interest isn't very high. However, I believe interest is high enough on the minds of enough to create a market for a lot of cars, just as having 500 horsepower or dual exhaust pipes is high on a lot of people's minds. Therefore, it is worth manufacturers supporting it.
This is a great forum for learning about and discussing what manufacturers are doing about plug-in vehicles.
I would recommend that if you want to discus high MPG, go over to the sister site: www.hybridcars.com, where more narrow minded people talk about getting high MPG so they can prolong the inevitable.
There are a lot of self-centered people there who only care that the privileged lifestyle to which they've been accustomed, lasts as long as they will live. They really aren't concerned about leaving anything for their kids or future generations.
Plug-in cars are not about better MPG, they are about plugging in instead of using petroleum. There's a huge difference.
Sorry for the harshness but the truth is the truth.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
I think you may have hit the nail on the head, although I don't think that what you intended. The market for plug-ins may be no bigger than the market for 500 horsepower cars. That's my fear short of another (and expected) fuel price spike. I honestly think it's less about self-centeredness than it is about affordability.

As to discussing high mpg, it's part of the package that's going to sell plug-ins. It's just not going to be a free ride. But if this site is only for true-believers, then it will probably never have the impact that a broader site like hybridcars.com has.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
There are plenty of people paying a lot of money for cars in this world and they will have to lead the improvements so that those who can't or won't can reap the benefits. This happened with all advances in the automobile, from steel-belted radial tires through active yaw control.
I agree that there is only a minority of people who care about and are working toward plug-ins. Even those who can't afford them can still help to raise awareness and make a huge difference through education and outreach efforts. There was a high school kid who set up an event this weekend in CA where he asked plug-in vehicle drivers to provide rides in their cars to people from his community. He was able to get a bunch of Tesla Roadster, Leaf, Volt, and RAV4EV drivers to come to his event and provide the rides. This kid doesn't even have a driver's license yet he exposed hundreds of people to plug-ins, many of whom were not aware of their fantastic performance. Each of the hundreds whom he exposed this weekend will likely tell others. This is how things get done, not by saying that the herd is stampeding toward a cliff so it is easiest to just go along with them.
I'm not ready to throw in the towel and give up on getting independent from oil. Judging from the number of plug-ins I'm seeing (I generally see at least one other plug-in vehicle on the road every day), it doesn't appear that I'm the only one.
Therefore, I'll decline your invitation to give up on plug-ins and reiterate my invitation to take your endorsement of fossil fuel burners to another website where you and your plethora of like minded can discus them as much as you like. You can also complain about the cost of gasoline with those who actually care. We need to keep plugincars for plug-in cars so the few tens of thousands of us who get it today, will have a forum to explore our options and means of promotion.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
I see Leafs and Volts every day, but I live in Northern CA, next to the county that has the highest per capita Leaf ownership in the country. But I know that is not representative of the whole of CA, much less the rest of the country. I think the goal is reducing GHG emissions with petroleum reduction a big part of that equation. If that's the goal, then anything that gets us closer to that goal is positive. Let's not do the stereotypical thing of throwing out the good because it is not perfect. By the same thinking, plug-in hybrids because they still carry fossil-fuel powered engines, are not part of the perfect. By the same thinking, natural gas vehicles are not good enough because they don't plug in. I believe we need to applaud all technologies that are moving us toward the ultimate goal-- reducing petroleum use and/or offering an alternative to the traditional gasoline ICE. I would argue that as long as plug-in car enthusiasts only talk amongst themselves they will never achieve the change that they now is necessary to really move society forward.

I also agree that it is probably up to the next generation to really make this transitional change and applaud the efforts of the current EV and plug-in owners who are encouraging that. My ultimate hope rest in my daughter (who currently drives a 1998 Buick Century because that's the low-cost transportation solution for her).

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

Dear Michael,
I welcome you to direct your energy toward YOUR ultimate goal -- reducing petroleum use and/or offering an alternative to the traditional gasoline ICE. That's your privilege and, so far, we're pretty much a free country. I only find a hybrid (or your e-assist) better than a Hummer H2 because it advances motor and battery technology. To me a TDI Diesel or CNG ICE are just like an H2 in that they are both gas guzzlers and both leave you equally addicted to a finite resource.
Personally, I'm offended when you come to a plugincar site and suggest that plug-in vehicles aren't a solution to anything because the herd isn't going that direction. Its still the right direction, even if it isn't as popular.
I can't speak for all plug-in enthusiasts but I try to spend my efforts promoting plug-ins among the general public. This includes providing information to this website so that those who care to really look for a solution to our society's ills can examine true alternatives to the gas guzzlers our ancestors left us with. I allow as many as possible to test my EVs so they won't be afraid of them. I also work to support public charging infrastructure and put my money where my mouth is to help jump start this necessary new technology. I show up as schools and explain to future generations who aren't so set in their ways how this will help them.
With a little help, I bought a Tesla Roadster. You'd be surprised how that opens up the eyes of those who are in the habit of spending a bit more money for a car that is a bit more than the average. Once the Roadster has caught their attention, people start looking at more affordable alternatives. Fortunately, Nissan, GM, and Tesla are currently offering reasonable options for some niche markets today. It looks like some of their competitors may eventually release a few other models until there are choices that are affordable and meet most of the public's needs.
If you look at the number of luxury cars being sold today, you realize that we are in the Golden Age of America. I hope that if our generation spends a bit more money on plug-ins today, instead of Lexus's, BMWs, Mercedes, Volvos, etc, sustainable, plug-in vehicles will be affordable sooner. This way, your daughter and her generation will be able to share at least a fraction of the prosperity that personal transportation provides us. You and I have enjoyed it for our lives, let's do what we can to pass it on.
Don't give up and settle for an easy path that doesn't reach a destination. I saw my first EV taken away from me and lies told about how I didn't want it. There was nothing I could replace it with and nothing on the horizon either. I joined forces with a lot of others and, while the battle is far from over, we're making huge progress. If we can get people to quit wasting their money on trying to get a better dinosaur and just go with a new species, it will all happen sooner.
Thanks for being the devil's advocate and being the straight man for me. I'd rather, however, that you pushed for something good instead of something that is just not as bad.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
Don't get me wrong. I never said anything about plug-in vehicles not being a solution, it's much more about whether they are "the" solution. If you haven't noticed, I've contributed to plugincars.com and hybridcars.com for some time and have tried to stay somewhat above the "this is the only solution" fray because I'm a journalist . As long as the primary source of electrons is fossil fuel (coal and natural gas), your argument in reality is one of an incremental change (until renewables kick in, which appears to be on a timeline similar to the plug-in one). I'm arguing the same thing, so maybe we're only violently agreeing on that subject. If we have 10% clean diesels by 2015 or 10% hybrids by the same date (or better yet, both), we are that much closer to dropping our dependence on imported oil.

But there are no easy paths, at least as long as we have this semblance of a democracy and market economy. Technologies are going to have to win the hearts and minds (and pocketbooks) of the consumers. I'm confident they will, but again, my main point is it's going to take some time because the competition is tough. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. Progress is being made and the options are getting better and better. My counter to you, is good is "not as bad," it's just not perfect, but another step int he right direction.

I have a lot of faith in the coming generation. They're not only focused more on efficiency than our generation, but they also seem to be less focused on cars as "the' transportation solution. I've spent enough time working on those options to know that, like the plug-in quest, there are no quick solutions, but the quest is worth our time and energy.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
I do agree that we probably are both looking to improve things but there are a few fundamental errors that you are making:
You say that "If we have 10% clean diesels by 2015 or 10% hybrids by the same date (or better yet, both), we are that much closer to dropping our dependence on imported oil. ". I contend that if we have 10% hybrids or 10% diesels by the same date (or any other date), we are still 100% dependent on oil. The only thing that will change is how fast it will hurt you how much.
I, too, have a lot of faith in the future generations and little faith in the spoiled Baby Boom generation but that doesn't mean I'm giving up. I'll still look for ways to coerce them to do the right thing instead of just the easy thing which has always be done for them.
There are a few things that will sway that pampered generation: Ego, guilt, and laziness being among the strongest ones.
Fortunately, there are ways to spin EVs so that they beat the ICE in each one of these. Tesla's performance and looks handles the ego side and any EV's intrinsic capabilities can be shown handle the guilt and be easier to use for those who drive a lot.
Using these motivations, I believe we can establish a beachhead (sorry, I'm a former Navy amphib guy) of early adopters and well-intentioned visionaries with financial means who will set the wheels in motion to start driving EV pricing towards commodity levels an encourage charging infrastructure. From this point, the natural benefits of EVs can flow down the market to the general populous.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
I'm with you--to the beaches (just don't get those chords wet). Seriously, I do think EVs will win in the end. Or they may be superseded by some other superior technology like fuel cells or something still be be invented. Guilt doesn't sell many cars, but all the positives of plug-ins should. In the meantime, anything that reduces our petroleum dependence is a step in the right direction and should be applauded, not denigrated.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,

Remember that you don't need to own 100% of a market to profitably run a business. You only have to make more than you spend. There are a lot of cars bought today, even in "bad" times.
I don't denigrate cars that reduce our oil dependence in open forums (this isn't one) but I do always remind people that hybrids, diesels, etc are good steps toward sustainability. It isn't always easy when I know how many stupid people actually think that their hybrid is good for the planet (no car is good for the planet but hybrids are only not as bad as some other cars). I quit posting to hybridcars.com after plugincars.com came online since I was having trouble remaining positive about the gas guzzlers they gush about over there.
I, personally see no reason to waste research money on the short-sighted technologies you mention in your post but, since this is still a free country, you're welcome to support whatever you like. Before you jump on EV support, let me state that I don't think government money should be spend on any kind of automobile development except for maybe military vehicles (the HMMWV "Hummer" of course reminds us of how poorly that money has been spent as well).

· Dan · 14 weeks ago

I’ve enjoyed the discussion between you two, and hope you don’t mind my making one comment.
@ex-EV1 driver: Just as you are frustrated with Michael’s suggestion that EVs might be adopted more gradually due to other personal vehicle choices available to consumers at lower prices. Others may be frustrated with your promotion of EVs at the expense of even more efficient bicycling or public transportation methods. Or redevelopment of communities that require little or no need for transportation at all.

I could imagine someone on www.bikeforums.net or www.transit-forum.com responding as follows to an EV post there, “I would recommend that if you want to discus high carbon impact transportation, go over to www.plugincars.com, where people talk about using a 3,000lb vehicle to move 200lb person and call it efficient transportation.”

My point is that defining discussions in terms of just plug-in cars or just hybrids is not going to give us an appreciation for the larger picture that allows us to challenge all sorts of assumptions about how our society is built and how things could be better in the future. Gaining perspective outside our realm of comfort, expertise, and ideology is what can move us towards better solutions overall.

EVs are great (I own one) and really enjoy it for what it is – but I’d rather not need a car at all. That is the ultimate in sustainability.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

The basic premise of this article is that EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. This is clearly currently the case, but this is very early days for mass produced EVs while ICE cars have been optimized for mass production for a century.

As we go forward batteries and the other components in EVs will become cheaper due to technology improvements and due to volume manufacturing. They may never be cheaper than ICE cars for the original purchase price, but at some point they are likely to be cheaper on a lifecycle basis.

The people who buy EVs now are helping to make this happen by increasing the volume of production and generally encouraging the auto manufacturers to continue to improve the technology.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
Now you're talking. Aim for profitability and everyone wins. While that's still down the road quite a bit for Nissan and GM, much less Tesla and Fisker, that has to be the goal rather than just some ideological aim.
@dan,
It's all a matter of degree, isn't it. But short of redesigning our current infrastructure, it looks like the automobile will remain a key part of the US transportation mix for some time.
@alt-e,
Some are making a good case that with incentives there are EVs that make economic sense now. And they should get better. But remember, every improvement is likely to be paced by improvements in "old" technologies, which will keep that gap out there, unless/until fuel prices tip the scales.

It's going to be an interesting next couple years, watching this unfold. Just be prepared for some non-linear developments.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

ICE cars have been mass produced for more than 100 years and EVs for 1 year.

Somewhere around 40,000 EVs were made last year while there were 80,000,000 ICE cars made.

I think that the rate at which prices fall on the EV side will be steeper than on the ICE side. At this point ICE cars are in the flatter part of the curve.

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@alt-e,
I agree that EV costs (primarily battery) have to come down quicker than typical ICE improvements and have been. Carlos Ghosn of Nissan says he'll be able to make money on EVs when he can produce 500K/year, which he expects to happen in a couple years. He's leveraging Nissan-Renault worldwide assets to make it happen.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

Exactly.

Every technology goes through a significant price drop period early on as production volume increases and the technology becomes more optimized. Early on there is quite a bit of low hanging fruit that can be harvested in this way.

Improvements can still be made with ICE, but they will be more hard fought for and there will be no further volume benefit for ICE since it is already at full volume levels.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Dan,
I love bicycling, walking, and rapid transit (I actually believe that city buses only serve to keep poor people poor) and have used these whenever they were even almost viable for me to get to work. I could, however, argue that the flexibility offered by the automobile greatly improves the overall quality of life.
This isn't the place for this argument, however, its a place to discus plug-in vehicles.
I would be out of place if I went to one of those websites and blasted everyone by telling them that EVs are going to make the bicycle and public transit a "nice to have" rather than a "must have".
It has been a good discussion and I appreciate Micheal Coates patience with my challenges to his alternatives to alternatives.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

For what its worth, I generally recommend to my friends and enemies that if they really want to have green transportation, they should continue driving whatever they have today as long as they can and save up their money for a plug-in. Their milking of their current vehicle longer will save manufacturing costs and it will also save them money so they'll have more available when the plug-in that meets their needs becomes available.
This is actually one of the things I did to help afford a Tesla Roadster. When my EV1 was taken from me, I replaced it with an old hand-me-down Buick that cost nearly nothing. After 5 years of not making any car payments, I had a pretty good war chest.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

@ Ex-EV1 Driver

I have been reading posts on this site for a long time and have only just started to post on it myself. I have been reading and researching electric cars for a long time now. I remember a site a long time ago when the EV1's had just been recalled. I really admire all you guys who believe so passionately about electric cars and the future of transportation and are actually doing something about it. I think living in the States that you are very lucky for the choices that you have in electric vehicles, for the rebates that you get and the pricing policy whereby your cars cost so much less than in most other countries in the world.

For me I would love nothing more than to own an electric car. I talk to my kids about it a lot. My eldest is always asking me when am I getting an electric car. However in Australia there are not so many choices. The leaf which is due to arrive mid 2012 will cost around 52k and have a 100 mile range. The model S will probably retail around 80k say with a 250 mile range if and when it gets here. There is no charging infrastructure at all in the country. I currently drive a relatively cheap Corolla around 22k new. I run my own business I do a lot of travelling I have been logging my mileage for the last 2 years. Every month I do a 6 day 1500-1900 mile round trip for business which also takes in seeing my kids flying is not an option as I do jobs as I travel.

My point is I have done a lot of research I want to buy an electric car but I would need to buy 2 cars, with the second car probably being a cheap ICE which would get around 40MPG. Economically with the best mileage options I think I should buy a Prius plug in. I don't want to I don't agree with Toyota who are dragging their feet and doing the absolute minimum as far as electric cars are concerned. But a prius will give me 74MPG normal driving and over 100MPG in the small amount of electric range up to 15 miles. I could buy a Volt maybe in a couple of years if they ever get here. But that will do good in electric up to 40 miles then will only give me 35-40MPG on gas which I think works out worse than the Prius for the amount of miles that I do.

I suppose what I am trying to say is maybe in some cases it aint so bad using gas if you use as little as you can.

What do you think do I have another option.

· Deckard · 14 weeks ago

@ Ex-EV1 Driver

Sorry that last post was from me

· Former old cadillac driver (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

On an individual level I am doing what I can to be low carbon. I will get my 25k after taxes and rebates mitsubishi i EV. I will be building a passivhaus with 95% less energy usage than a regular new construction and getting alternative energy for the rest. I will use reclaimed materials where I can.

So as capitalism likely created global warming, can we get out of it with capitalism? I an going to try my best. Sure I could live in a cave and walk everywhere, but my wife would leave me and the icecaps would still melt. People in the Us are the most destructive to the environment because of our usage of energy and our denial of science.

Hence the fastest way toward not destroying ourselves is changing opinions and lifestyles for the masses in this country. Offering biking and cave living to most americans doesn't cut it. Praising people for choosing more efficient lifestyles moves us forward even if that movement is too slow to make a difference. Hopefully Americans who only a generation ago praised frugality and efficiency will again do so and we can live comfortably and without carbon. Hopefully it will happen soon.
We need both early adopters and incremental changers.
Former cadillac driver

PS.
I just wish we had commercialized cheaper battery tech earlier like lithium iron or nickle metal hydride. Chevron prevented us from having a 10k Ev by preventing the tech from ending up in full ev's. We wouldn't be having this conversation now if we had free capitalism in this country instead of corporate welfare and suppression of fantastic technologies.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@Deckard,
Thanks for the kind words.
Even here in the US, it has been tough to get things going and we're a long way from being able to declare success.
I think that here in California, we had a few advantages that came together to allow things to happen. These were a mix of dedicated visionaries with skills ranging from technology, dealing with the media, and connections with environmental and activist groups that got together to push. The other big push was in Israel where several visionary businessmen got together to pressure Renault to make EVs.
I encourage you to get a production EV as soon as you can and then let as many people as possible try it out. Focus especially on influential people such as teachers, children, the press, and government officials. Driving a quality, production EV is infinitely better than any other way to convince someone. Avoid golf carts or anything with severely limited capability. IMHO, the Leaf is the minimum I would use to try to convince someone that the EV is a viable means of transportation.
Try to remain as knowledgeable as you can about EVs that are or soon will be available as well as their capabilities and limitations so you can be knowledgeable. This website, http://www.pluginamerica.org/, and http://www.evnut.com/ are great places to start.
Good luck.

· abasile · 14 weeks ago

@Deckard: In terms of reducing your overall petroleum consumption by the largest possible amount with a single car, the plug-in Prius probably would be best given your regular, long-haul driving combined with (I am assuming) shorter trips around town when you are at home.

Another option would be to purchase a LEAF for local driving, and continue to use your Corolla on those long trips (or perhaps replace it with a used Prius). If your family has multiple drivers, then other family members would get to drive the LEAF as well, especially when you are out of town. As ex-EV1 driver suggested, actually owning a "real" EV (not a Plug-in Prius) might be ideal if you want to serve as an EV advocate in your country.

Given the length of your trips, and lack of charging infrastructure, I doubt a Tesla would make sense. There's no point in spending more money on a larger battery pack and 300 miles of range if you have to drive 700 miles in one day (unless of course Tesla "Superchargers" are available en route). You probably need to stick an ICE or hybrid for those long trips.

Please keep us posted! Glad to hear from someone "down under"!

· Michael Coates · 14 weeks ago

@Deckard I take it you're in the UK based on the pricing and mileage you mention (IMP gal, I believe). To differ with some of the other comments, given you lengthy driving, you really should consider one of the small diesels on the market like the Fiesta (80 mpg combined/95 g/km). EVs are great around town, but if you can only afford one car for your lifestyle, that's about the lowest carbon footprint you're going to find.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

I love the electric vehicles. Though pure electric cars can help us change the world , hybrid cars is a transitional way. I am driving the BYD F3DM in China, which costs me RMB 160,000 with subsidy. In my opinion, the plug-in hybrid car is good for us .It can drive with all-electricity or half-electricity. Totally , BYD has to improve the F3dm festures to fit the USA markets.

www.facebook.com/bydcompany
www.facebook.com/autobyd

· Deckard · 14 weeks ago

Thank you for the posts appreciate your comments and the links.

My logical mind tells me to buy the Prius but I think for the points that both ex-EV1 driver and Abasile made I am going to keep my little corolla and save up and buy a leaf too.

Thanks guys will keep you posted on what's happening "down under"

Hey 35 people bought an I-Miev in the last 5 months we have to start somewhere.

· tterbo · 14 weeks ago

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shoulder_rats/6341869918/in/photostream

I'm not sure about the other CNG's but Honda's Civic trunk isn't very appealing. Sure you can carry your groceries in your lap, but the safety section of the car manual doesn't recommend it. They've been selling the Civic GX for 14 years now. I've never seen one driving though. I just don't see an SUV addicted populace running past even the open trunk in the regular Civic to get this. They've had plenty of time to try.

· tterbo · 14 weeks ago

CNG's, at least in the Civic's case only have fleet appeal because the fleet customer doesn't have to maintain and guard a giant gas container on site. They can fill the cars up locally, without paying a local gas distributor to truck gas out to them. There are no wet-hose fees, etc. Plus they don't have to manage employee gas card's and cardlocks. Hence it's a nice deal for fleets. But the home user could care less about most of those benefits, they just need a car that will meet all their random needs.

· EVNow · 14 weeks ago

@Michael Coates· "The price points and performance of these models point us towards a challenging future."

The problem with the cars you noted is either
- They aren't practical (Honda GSX has a tiny trunc)
- The extra money isn't worth it

A few mpg increase is not a good enough reason to buy a different brand than you normally buy or pay a premium you may never recover. Not saying these types of technologies won't be successful or don't have appeal. Just that these are likely technologies that OEMs will start using in their normal line-up. They can perhaps peel off a few % of reluctant hybrid buyers. They will not appeal to plygin buyers.

· ex-EV1 driver · 14 weeks ago

@tterbo,
I see a lot of Civic GX around in Southern CA. They get carpool lane privileges and, with the Phill, you can refuel at home for very cheap but only get about 200 miles worth of range.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

@ · Anonymous - Do you have any other impressions of the F3DM that you are driving? How many miles do you have on it? What kind of battery range are you getting? What kind of milage after that? That sort of thing.

Also, do you know if they have made many of the E6 yet? They are supposed to be selling them to the public now in China. Do you know someone who can give us their impressions of driving the E6 on a regular basis?

· Anonymous (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

@ alt-e . If it is possible, you can give me your email and then I send you some pictures of F3dm . I have run 6000 miles on it . The F3dm uses the Fe battery .Dual Mode (DM) Electric Vehicle, based on BYD's new generation Fe battery.The total output of BYD's DM Electric Vehicle is 125kw(168hp). F3DM consumes 16kwh of electricity per 100km(62 mile).
Driving Range on EV Mode: 60km
Charging Time: 8 hours (Household)
http://www.facebook.com/auto
http://www.byd.com
you can get more information on both websites.

· ev_ice (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

Perhaps EV's are not the true alternatives to ICE? For when the true alternative arrives most everyone will jump on board. Me thinks it will eventually be hydrogen or air converted energy. Not today's versions where you need to carry, store and re-fuel but internal produced or converted self-sufficient non re-refueling energy for boats, plans and auto's. After all what does the word "auto" mean if not automatically self-sufficient? But aahhh the almighty energy hogs will fight it all the way.

· mark120169 (not verified) · 12 weeks ago

@ all the Yanks posting here.

All this batting back a forth is because your fuel costs are still way, way to cheap compared to most other developed countries. For sure you will see higher and higher taxes put on fuel (because it is very easy to collect and can't be avoided). Also one day and maybe in our lifetime the USD will lose it's reserve status as the worlds currency that oil is traded in so you will also be subject to exchange rate rises for oil.

You need see that within maybe 20 years you will have fuel costs matching Europe and the UK. Then you will all become much much more EV focused over ICE as MPG will be king,

Petrol (95ron) and Diesel has just hit record levels in the UK. I do not know if you purchase by the litre of US Gallon? But the UK cost is now :

Petrol (95 Ron) @ £1.36 litre ($2.15 litre) or about $8.13 a US Gallon!!

Diesel @ £1.43 litre ($2.26 litre) or about $8.55 a US Gallon!!

Now if you had these pricesnow, in 2012 ( I beleive your prices are less than 1/2 this?) then you would be all over EV.

The chevy volt comes to the UK later this year as the Vauxhall Ampera and is looking to cost £25k (about $40k) after government rebate and my wife has paid her deposit already as she drives a 50 mile round trip daily to work and her current BMW 320i (2.2 engine) does about 28mpg average due to traffic.

As the vast majority of her journey can be done on battery, and maybe all if her employer (General Electric!) allow charging at work somehow, the cost savings over 5-10 years are large even compared to a newer BMW diesel.

You need to think outside your bubble as your fuel costs are not going down anytime soon!

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@mark120169
I think you've told us "Yanks" exactly what we need to but don't want to hear.
I hope that a few more of us will start listening.
Good luck with your Ampera.

· Brian Schwerdt · 12 weeks ago

@mark120169,
I agree 100% with what you're saying. In fact, most people who frequent this site are right with you. You are preaching to the choir here...

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@mark120169,
You are right on! Our experience of the past decade is that the sale so HEVs and all fuel efficient vehicles tracks very closely to fuel prices. Not surprising, the peak of Prius sales was during the 2008 gas price spike. If more hikes are coming, and again history teaches us they are, sales of all fuel-efficient vehicles, including and especially plug-ins, should spike as well.

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
Going back to our original discussion. The value between EVs and fuel-efficient vehicles follows the old adage:
"Give a man a fish and he'll not starve tonight. Teach him to fish and he'll never go hungry."
As we see many less-intelligent or more-greedy people only want you to give them a fish (fuel-efficient vehicle). They don't want to bother to learn how to fish or spend time doing so (buy an EV).
This of course, is probably where my opinions deviate from the more liberal-minded within this community.

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
Only thing I'll add is many folks don't have the luxury of the long-term view that's the equivalent of being taught how to fish because, the follow the analogy, it involves buying a boat, rod, reel, bait, etc. while just buying a fish is something they can afford today.

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
I'm not sure I really care about what they can afford today. I don't really care if they starve today or tomorrow.
What I want is for them not to starve.
Near-sighted feel-good measures such as food-giveaways and fuel-efficient oil-dependent vehicles aren't going to help anyone. They will just make the inevitable collapse that much worse.
I'm still only in for the long haul.
By the way, if you like, I can teach you how to fish with less than $5 worth of materials. No boat, rod, reel, or purchased bait necessary. Just a line, a hook, and some earthworms.

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
That's what's needed right now--a line, hook and earthworm EV! If there was one (or was one on the horizon) this would be a much more fun conversation. I'm thinking it will be a long haul, but hopefully one with plenty of fishing along the way.

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
You've got to give it time. We've gotten too spoiled with the free rides from before and the world has changed.
I always tell folks who can't afford an EV to just hang on to whatever they're driving today and save the car payments they would be making on a new car until an EV comes along that is affordable with their saved money and their car payment.
I drove my grandmother's old '91 Buick (cost me $5.00) for 7 years while waiting for one I could afford. You could consider it to have been my "line, hook, and earthworm" EV since it was my path to get there. A few years without that toxic "new car smell" didn't hurt me too badly.

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
It helps to have a plan. Then again, we have folks like Newt Gingrich, who I heard today saying: "What the liberals don't understand is you can't put a gun rack in Volt."

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
To which I'll respond: "why not". As a veteran, I can assure you I've kept big guns in some strange places.
Have you ever tried to carry a cash shipment to the airport in a 3rd world country with small rental cars? I can assure you that an M-60 machine gun and a couple of shotguns fit just fine if you need to.
Maybe its just the morons that make up his constituency that can't figure it out :-)
My grandfather always kept a shotgun on his dashboard in Nebraska in case he happened to see a bird. He was a Buick guy.

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
Hey, talk to Newt--and don't shoot the messenger!

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

Sorry to come across that way. I didn't mean to direct that towards you.
I actually went straight to his campaign website as soon as I heard his nonsense this morning.

· Michael Coates · 12 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver,
No offense taken, I was just kidding around with you. I try to stay non-partisan, but when one party says we should drill our way to cheap gasoline (the other thing Newt and others said today), it begs their seriousness about the challenges they will face in office. Yes, the cost of gasoline is a threat to low-income (and some middle-income) folks, but drill, baby, drill, is not the logical way to attack the problem.

· ex-EV1 driver · 12 weeks ago

@Michael Coates,
I guess we need to send this to Newt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zK0ieX9mHr4

So his stupid supporters can see how to put a gunrack in a Volt.
:-)

· dgpcolorado · 11 weeks ago

@mark120169, "For sure you will see higher and higher taxes put on fuel (because it is very easy to collect and can't be avoided)."

While I would like to see higher gasoline taxes here in the USA, so that the price reflects some of the myriad external costs of using oil for transportation, I disagree that we will see it "for sure" because it is "easy to collect". The issue of high gas prices is too easy for political demagogues to exploit (see "Gingrich, Newt" mentioned by others above). They have convinced the people in this country that it is their God-given right to exploit the world's resources and to have access to cheap fuel. Any politician who proposes higher gas taxes in this country would be out of office in short order. The profound ignorance of the voting public is much too easy to exploit.

"Also one day and maybe in our lifetime the USD will lose it's reserve status as the worlds currency that oil is traded in so you will also be subject to exchange rate rises for oil."

In this prediction I think you will turn out to be correct. I had thought that the Euro would come to be that reserve currency but the recent Euro-zone troubles have put that back many years I think, if it ever happens at all. Someday, the dollar seems likely to be supplanted as the world's reserve currency. But not today.

PluginCars

The Challenge for Plug-In Cars

Comments

Add comment

All Discussions

Does EV Quick-Charging By the Minute Make Sense?

In Veiled Sales Pitch, A123 Warns about Dangers of EV Quick Charging

The Race to Lock Down Electric Car Charging Real Estate

Chasing an Elusive Next Generation Battery to Rival Gasoline in Energy Density

Real Electric Car Battery Costs Remain Elusive

Cars.com Lists Chevy Volt as One of "Top 10 Under-Appreciated Cars and Trucks"

Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid is Third Quickest Selling Vehicle in US

Ford Focus Electric Rollout Continues to Crawl

What is the True Range of an Electric Car? The Mini E Experience Leaves Many Questions

Tesla Model S Range Exceeds Even Tesla's Expecations