Carmakers Showing No Enthusiasm For Vehicle-to-Grid Applications

By Laurent J. Masson · February 08, 2012

This Chevrolet Volt is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

This Chevrolet Volt is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

Last, week, I had a noteworthy exchange with an engineer from a European carmaker who works on electric cars. Without naming him or revealing what he does, I'll just refer to him as my friend. I'm happy to report his thoughts about vehicle-to-grid technologies (V2G), because the matter is not sensitive and pretty straight-forward: His company has no plans to offer V2G anytime.

My friend told me that he doesn't like the idea because cars are made for driving—not as energy-storage devices designed to give electricity back to the grid. Of course, the idea makes no sense with gas cars. It happens that a gas station runs out of fuel, but nobody has ever brought some gas back to the station to help the other drivers. Actually, it's quite the opposite that happens when there's rumor of a shortage. You see people rushing to gas stations to grab as much as they can. A V2G scheme is in the remote realm of feasibility, but it would bring so many technological changes that may also induce legal changes.

This Ford Focus is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

This Ford Focus is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

The big issue with V2G is that car manufacturers can't precisely size its effects. Everything's built to a specification in a car. Parts should last a given mileage or a given time, then everything starts to fall apart. An engineer can predict the state of decay of an electric car battery after five years or 75,000 miles, but what if the car has also been used in a V2G application? There's no clear answer, nor a single answer because a V2G system might only ask for short bursts of power once in a while, or it may be used daily to soften the peak that happens in the afternoon—making it difficult for car manufacturers to estimate how much "wear" V2G will add to the battery. Car buyers who chose the V2G option would probably see their battery's warranty reduced—maybe down to six years instead of eight. More than that, the marketplace would learn that cars using V2G will have a battery with more utilization and wear than you would think based on mileage. This would mean a lower resale value. Maybe this would be offset by money coming from the electricity company which bought the electricity from the car. The V2G option shall also require a significant premium when buying the car, but my friend would speculate on the amount. He has never worked on that.

This Nissan Leaf is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

This Nissan Leaf is charging up, but someday this picture may show a car sending power to the grid

As you can imagine, after this 10 minute chat, my early enthusiasm for V2G started to fade. But not totally, because V2G could still be made to work safely and advantageously—given some strong restrictions. The idea is not to stress the battery in any way. The power allowed for a V2G application would have to be very limited. Imagine that maximum power available could be as low as 5 kW, and the battery would not be drained below 75% SOC. Of course, those numbers are highly hypothetical, since they would have to match the bi-directional home charger, which at this time only exists at the experimental level. The only sure thing is that it will be a long time before cars become parts of a smart grid network.

Or maybe one of you have ideas to make car companies more confident about vehicle-to-grid technology? My friend would like to hear them.

About the author

I've been covering the green automotive scene in Europe since 1998. I started on the web with http://www.moteurnature.com/ in 2002 and I have interest in all kind of green personal transportation. Of course, I'm a big fan of electric car technology (that's why I'm here!), but the electric car I own (an old Peugeot) ...

Full bio · 246 posts

Comments

· Callajero (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

I think V2G will eventually happen in the longer term, as the number of cars increase and people will demand the choice of having the V2G option. In the shorter term, V2H (vehicle to home) makes a lot of sense having the vehicle available as a back-up power provider in case of prolonged power outages. V2H can also be utilized during peak periods when prices are higher with TOU rates.

· Smidge204 · 14 weeks ago

@Callajero - I have to disagree that V2G will happen. There is no incentive for vehicle manufacturers (this article explains why pretty well), and there is no incentive for owners to participate. V2G really only benefits utility companies. For society as a whole it might be a good idea but the reality of the situation doesn't give it much appeal.

V2H is another matter - manufacturers might not care for it but as an owner, having the ability to keep my refrigerator and furnace running for a few days of power outage - without the noise and hassle of owning and maintaining a generator - is something to consider.

· Anonymous (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

The problem with promoting a V2G system, which no one seems to mention, is the amount of energy that is lost in the process of charging the battery from the grid to get a charge and then discharging the battery to return energy to the grid. This two way transfer of energy is going to waste a great deal of electricty which runs directly against the whole principle of driving an electric car, which is reducing energy consumption. I understand that using the car as a battery for your home in a emergency power outage might be helpful, but that is a rather isolated event and certainly not something any car manufacturer is going to have a market for.

· tterbo · 14 weeks ago

Adding on to the above, the cars are already pricey enough. This functionality would likely kick the cost up even further. Especially, at least by sapping battery life. It would be hard to understand from the customer's perspective why their battery should burn through recharge cycles without them even driving it.

Plus, can't they accomplish the same with farms of discarded car batteries that nobody cares about anyway?

· Anonymous (not verified) · 14 weeks ago

I’m not sure V2G is required to gain most of the benefit that V2G offers, especially in the short term when intermittent renewable energy sources are still a minority of the entire grid supply.

A similar result could be had with limiting charge rates. In short, when the power company is seeing a spike in demand, they slow down the charging of any vehicles plugged into the grid. They’re already doing this with air conditioning units and other high power consumers.

You can imagine that you pay less if you give the power company more control over when your car charges. Conversely, you would pay more if you need a quicker charge.

· alt-e · 14 weeks ago

V2G is just silly and always has been. The battery that goes into a car is a very premium device. It is premium because it stores a high amount of energy in a limited amount of weight (high energy density). The grid does need more storage solutions for handling the peak loads of the day, but the grid doesn't care about energy density. You cannot do enough V2G to bother without reducing battery life and, in fact, reducing the energy denisty of that special battery.

As tterbo said above, EVs will help the utilities with their peak power needs, but they will do so by selling batteries to them once those batteries have declined enough in energy density that they cannot deliver the kind of range the EV needs.

Of course using an EV to backup a house or business during a blackout is another matter. That is a premium function that does not come up very often and so is well worth doing.

EVs are very good for utility companies, by the way. Most of the charging of EVs will occur at night. This will allow the utilities to have a customer during their lull period and so the utilities will be able to keep their fixed equipment in bill-able operation more hours per day. Resulting in a higher rate of return for any piece of generating or distributing equipment they have. In short, their equipment will be more productive and they will make more money.

· Kei Jidosha (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

If you have this discussion with Hidetoshi Kadota, Nissan LEAF Chief Vehicle Engineer, I believe it will be quite different.

· ex-EV1 driver · 13 weeks ago

@Kei Jidosha,
What do you believe Mr. Kadota will say about V2G?

· Kei Jidosha (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

"Nissan believes that its LEAF-to-home system will gain popularity within the next five years" www.plugincars.com/nissans-leaf-home-system-could-power-house-two-days-1...

· Tterbo1 (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

I give up on logging in. Hehe. The battery backup functionality of the cars would be nice as an option. I dont need it for my house but I know plenty of people, with less than perfect electric service that could benefit.

· Tterbo1 (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

I give up on logging in. Hehe. The battery backup functionality of the cars would be nice as an option. I dont need it for my house but I know plenty of people, with less than perfect electric service that could benefit.

· indyflick · 13 weeks ago

For emergencies, when the power goes out, it would be great to power my home. Or if I had a weekend cabin off the grid then sure, it's a good idea. But otherwise, I'm not buying it.

· Larry, Richmond VA (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

It's hard to see how V2G will make any economic sense any time soon. Batteries and battery usage are still way to expensive, and it still costs quite a bit more to store a kWh of power than to produce it. Even the newest batteries are not immortal and even gentle usage ages them. If a battery lasts 100,000 miles at 250 Wh per mile, that means it stored a total of 25,000 kWh in its lifetime, but it probably cost ~$20,000, or almost $1 per kWh stored. No utility can pay that much and EV owners would be foolish to accept much less.

· Smidge204 · 13 weeks ago

@tterbo

Nissan seems to have already thought exactly that, and end-of-life handling of degraded LEAF battery modules includes utility power storage:

http://www.green-car-guide.com/new-use-for-end-of-life-nissan-leaf-batte...

Honestly that's an excellent plan - an active but low-stress retirement for used EV batteries... I can only hope my own goes that well!

· ex-EV1 driver · 13 weeks ago

I can see 2 similar approaches that this capability could provide that could be valuable:
1) jump starting an EV. If one could provide electricity from an EV, it would enable you to jumpstart one if someone runs out of power. For folks like me who live up a very high hill, having someone that could run a little extra juice down to me could be helpful when I push it too far. Why not just another EV?
2) I can see how charger companies could work well with the utilities to develop chargers where the utilities could request that an EV stop or start charging when they want to adjust their load. I don't see much value to feeding power from the car to the grid but I can see how the utility could be ceded some control (that MUST be over-rideable) on when charging occurs. With the Leaf's current wimpy 3.3 kW charging, this, of course doesn't make much sense but once it gets to 6.6 or higher, there is more flexibility on when one charges.

· Laurent J. Masson · 13 weeks ago

About Nissan, I guess that V2G might be more "doable" in Japan. The average home there is more energy-efficient than in Europe or in the US, and the Japanese people are less individualistic. The density of EVs per square mile may also be higher, and that should translate in less electricity taken out from each car. Though that would require some research...

· abasile · 13 weeks ago

One challenge I see with V2G is that utilities would probably be most interested in drawing power from EVs during peak usage hours, typically during the afternoon when a large percentage of EVs are not plugged in. On the other hand, perhaps employers that permit their employees to charge upon arrival in the morning could as needed draw a bit of that energy back out in the afternoon to reduce their peak demand; this might be beneficial in areas where utilities levy substantial commercial demand charges.

As for how much wear this would put on battery packs, I agree that this has yet to be widely measured. Gentle use probably wouldn't have too big an effect; consider the lithium ion batteries in the Mars rovers which are cycled gently for maximum life. Particularly in hot areas with high summertime AC utilization, peak power can be quite valuable, probably more than enough to compensate for the cost of modest battery wear.

That said, perhaps the easiest way of mitigating the cost differential between off-peak and peak power is simply for utilities to maintain their own, large scale energy storage (could eventually be used EV batteries) as some are starting to do.

Adding solar generation can also help with peak demand, though with the caveat that peak demand is often staggered into the evening when solar PV is less productive.

· Steven (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

For those of us with PV (but without an EE degree), what is the story on using an EV battery to provide just enough power to keep our inverters online? If I’ve got this right, even for inverters designed to work with off-the-grid PV systems, there has to be some steady power source supplying just enough current to provide the synchronization signal to the inverter required to keep it running – and thus keep the PV panels generating power.

The point is there may be another scenario in which V2G ‘makes sense’ – as a battery backup for peak demand times when the grid goes down. Providing one watches one’s power consumption during such (hopefully) short and infrequent periods, wouldn’t the hit on the expensive high power density EV batteries be relatively minimal? (I keep having these nightmares of neighbors who bought swimming pools instead of PV laughing at me during an extended black or brown-out and taunting me with statements like “At least we had fun.”)

· ex-EV1 driver · 13 weeks ago

@Steven,
The problems you're talking about is a safety feature built into your grid-tied inverters that intentionally prevents them from producing AC power when the grid is down. It is actually technically more difficult to do it this way but the power company requires if if you connect to the grid.
You can purchase off-grid inverters that don't require the grid to be online and can store unused electricity in batteries but you'd have to purchase another inverter and the electricity from this can't be connected to your house wiring if your house wiring is also connected to the grid.
I'm looking at installing such a system in parallel with my grid-tied system that I would use to power a few key things in my house (refrigerator, hot water heater, a light or two, etc) in the event of a power outage.

· Steven (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

@ex-EV1 driver
The people at Tucson Electric Power tell me they will accept a Sunnyboy Sunny Island inverter which apparently has the ability to act as either an on or off-grid inverter (with batteries). I assume it has some kind of disconnect switch that satisfies their safety concerns. And two separate PV contractors have told me about systems with associated electronics that purportedly even work off-grid with inverters designed to work on-grid. The first never followed through and the second started talking about a lot of money to re-wire my house so I wouldn’t have to go through and manually shut things down. That actually makes some sense now that I think about it. Would I have to worry about possibly very expensive appliances hosed by faulty power?

P.S. Thanks for weighing in! I suspect I could not afford your consulting fees.

· Steven (not verified) · 13 weeks ago

(Steven's speculations) - "...the second started talking about a lot of money to re-wire my house so I wouldn’t have to go through and manually shut things down."
I'll bet this is what they were talking about come to think of it:
"I'm looking at installing such a system in parallel with my grid-tied system that I would use to power a few key things in my house (refrigerator, hot water heater, a light or two, etc) in the event of a power outage.'

· ex-EV1 driver · 13 weeks ago

@Steven,
You could spend a lot of money on this kind of system if you wire your house like a hospital operating room with uninterrupted backup in the event of an emergency. I, however, am only thinking about a minimal (cheap) system that offers me about 4 120volt outlets from which I can string extension cords to charge my EV and run the few important things from.
I'm ok if it takes me an hour or so to hook things up.
As far as my consulting fees, you're probably right: I don't make that much but my company charges a whole lot on top of my salary for my time.
My funny story about emergency backup power is with the Navy ship I spent much of my navy career on.
In order to be sure they could nicely control the boilers and power plant in the event of an electricity loss, they wired all of the electronics in the engine room to a "no-break power supply". They located this "no-break power supply" in the safest part of the engine room -- right outside the air conditioned main control room. Apparently, they had gone with the lowest bidder for this "no-break power supply". It seems that if you happened to slam the door to the main control room, the "no-break power supply" would trip offline. Immediately, the entire power plant shut down and this huge warship was dark and stopped in the water and using flashlights until they could get the emergency diesel generators started up and re-light the fires. I can talk about this little vulnerability in our nation's defenses since this ship was decommissioned many years ago.
This experience is another reason I lean toward a relatively simple, independent backup power system. I'm not sure I really want everything in my house dependent on something called "Sunny anything" :-)

· ex-EV1 driver · 13 weeks ago

@Steven,
If you're worried about appliances and faulty power, I'd recommend surge protectors on each one you're concerned about and possibly an individual Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) on each one as well. They are pretty cheap these days.
You would then be weighing the extra electricity costs of running the UPS all the time with the unlikelihood that the appliances would get damaged. The most damage, however, is most likely immediately when the grid power cuts off, often with accompanying huge voltage spikes. You are vulnerable to this today.
We lost a lot of electronic equipment on the ship every time someone slammed the door to main control or shut it down doing engineering exercises. That stuff was probably bought from the lowest bidder too.
I remember one particularly interesting trip back across the Atlantic from Europe when the only open-ocean navigation equipment that still worked were the old fashioned sextants and star almanacs (books) for shooting the stars because the electronic systems had all been blown by voltage spikes caused by power losses.

· Laurent J. Masson · 13 weeks ago

Thanks for all these comments. I had known for a while that carmakers don't like the V2G idea, I see it doesn't get much more support from drivers. The idea of a house back-up is nice though.

Special thanks to ex-EV1 for insider's information from the US Navy.

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