@hutch, this is from the DoE.

"A tax credit is available for electric vehicle charging equipment placed into service after December 31, 2005. The credit amount is up to 30% of the project cost, not to exceed $30,000 for equipment placed into service in 2011. Fueling station owners who install qualified equipment at multiple sites are allowed to use the credit towards each location. Consumers who purchase qualified residential fueling equipment may receive a tax credit of up to $1,000. Under current law, the credit expires December 31, 2011, for all other eligible fuel types. Unused credits that qualify as general business tax credits, as defined by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), may be carried backward one year and carried forward 20 years."

So what do folks think about a dealership who takes a $30K tax credit to put EVSEs into service and then denies public access?

>> I was there when this "woman" arrived.<<
Ouch. Was she not a human female?

>> She was indignant and very rude, assuming everyone would drop what they were doing to help the great EV driver.<<
Ouch again. Now we're down to "she said/he said." And from experience I'll have to assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

>> The charger costs the dealership approx $2000 a unit <<
Which EVSEs (not chargers - that part is in the car) are you guys using?

@Perry
>>Exactly how much free power is she entitled to? 261 work days - 2 to 4 bucks a day during peak usage times - $500 to $100 a year. Does her employer give 100 - 200 gallons of gas a year to each of the other employees?<<
I can't tell you how many times I've heard this "fairness" concept. First off - do you offer to pay for the water when you flush the toilet at work? For the electricity your computer or lights use? Or is it that you are entitled to it because everybody else has the same entitlement? What if you flush more than your co-workers?

As for electricity being the same as gasoline... folks who drive EVs today really DO help every living thing on the planet (relative to gasoline burners). We need to incentivise what's good for us and discourage what's bad for us. Some workplaces offer incentives for riding a bicycle to work. Not because it is "fair" but because it benefits everybody. Yes, sometimes doing the right thing actually costs money. And usually doing the wrong thing ends up costing more.

Regardless of what happened, I agree that LEAF owners should be polite and pleasant when requesting charging access. Coming across as self-righteous and entitled will accomplish absolutely nothing. That said, I hope that all Nissan dealerships will come to understand that helping to fill gaps in the charging infrastructure is for the greater good, and ultimately serves their interests.

I am a LEAF specialist and would like to invite ANYONE, regardless of where you purchased your vehicle to come use our chargers at Stevens Creek Nissan. I know that there are range issues for people coming to San Jose from Gilroy and such and you are welcome to drop your LEAF off here. I know there was a misunderstanding with a nice lady at our establishment, but we believe that we have remedied any misunderstanding. I encourage you to come see for yourself. My name is Aaron de Priest from Stevens Creek Nissan.

@Aaron - As the editor of PluginCars.com, I would like to welcome you to our community. I'm a new LEAF owner in the East Bay and will make a special effort to pay a visit to Stevens Creek on my next trip to San Jose...and charge up. We would love to hear from you, and your LEAF customers, with any insights and experiences about driving electric.

@Anonymous: The great majority of LEAF owners are not likely to charge at dealerships on anywhere near a daily basis. (Believe me, I would not hang out at a dealership just to avoid paying for electricity!) However, one of the selling points of the LEAF has been access to dealership charging when needed to stretch the range of the car. This selling point would go away if too many dealers were to be become stingy with charging.

One week ago, we drove our LEAF to a friend's house which involved a one-way trip of about 56 miles and a net elevation loss of 5000 feet. Of course, driving there was a piece of cake. Getting home, however, required that we leave our friend's house with a full charge, which we obtained from his AV charging dock. To play it safe, we also "topped off" at Fontana Nissan (the dealer from which we purchased the LEAF) before climbing our mountain. While we could have made the drive without stopping at the dealer, the bit of extra charge we received there gave us enough of a comfort margin to make the drive without "range anxiety". We were thus able to enjoy driving the LEAF, even though doing so took a bit longer because we were stretching the range.

Darell you are unfortunately 100% correct. Last night, a customer came into my restaurant and I noticed he pulled up in a new Volt. I immediately started talking to him about the volt and he told me the salesman "advised" him to run the generator a few times a week at the minimum to make sure it say properly lubricated! He said he has to intentionally not charge it on some days to make sure the ICE turns on to do so!

He also said he was a bit disappointed in the cold weather range and only got about 25 miles per charge in February. I asked him if he was preconditioning and he had no idea what I was talking about! He didn't even know he could precondition the cabin and battery while plugged into the grid!

How can GM or Nissan not have at least one EV "specialist" in every dealership that are selling these to fully explain them to everyone that buys one?

This has been quite a learning experience all the way around. The consumers buying this vehicle are highly intellegent and should be applauded for there forward thinking to protect our enviorment. I am finding that I frequently learn as much or more from my customers than I have my 150+ hours of training from Nissan to become a "specialist". I feel as though I am watching the dawning of a new tomorrow and am enjoying every minute of this opportunity I have been given. I was asked at a training meeting what this means to me, the LEAF. I relate it to any huge moment in history. Where were you when we landed on the moon, things along this line. I look forward to telling my grandkids that I was one of the first salesmen on the LEAF, helping to usher in a new generation of automobile.

... how does Darell get a job in that industry?

To answer the question of how Daryl can get involved. It is tough, in our case, for example, the two coordinators, Myself and Kahssay have gone through over 150+ hours of training and we are the only ones allowed to sell the LEAF because we know the product and have been fully trained. That is Nissan's edict to be able to sell this vehicle. It would also be very difficult for someone who doesnt know anything about the car buisness to just walk in and start selling cars. If he wants to get into the car sales buisness I have no doubt he could find a job, but Nissan would find him un qualified to sell a LEAF. Although I certainly admire his wanting to get involved.

FYI. My sales guy at Hilltop Nissan in Richmond, sent me this email as a primer on rebates. Very helpful. Maybe others can copy. (I'm already approved for my rebate.)

Dear ___,

- Federal Tax Credit:
The Leaf qualifies for up to $7,500 federal tax credit. In the case of a lease, that tax credit is included upfront on the lease program. In case of a purchase you have to apply for on your tax declaration for 2010-2011.

For more information visit www.fueleconomy.gov
- State Tax Credit:
Zero Emission Vehicles like the Leaf qualify for a state tax credit between $3,000 - $5,000, either on a purchase or a lease. The owner has to keep the vehicle on either case for a minimum of 3 years. You apply for on or after day of ownership, whether a lease or purchase.
You also qualify for 30% or up to $1000 state rebate for cost of home charging units on all charging stations installed between January 1st 2011 and December 31st 2012.

To apply visit www.energycenter.org/cvrp
* Check these links for more information on State tax rebates:

- Center for Sustainable Energy of California/Clean Vehicle Rebate Program:
www.energycenter.org/cvrp

- CVRP Elegible vehicles:
https://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-reba...

- Applicant requirements and qualifying vehicle information:
https://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/self-generation-in...

- Implementation manual for CVRP:
https://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/self-generation-in...

- Zero Emission vehicle sticker (white):
For using the carpool lane. Sticker has to be obtained at DMV offices once a permanent license plate has been issued.

- PG&E: You can ask for a special rate for night charging.

Cheers,
...

@ Aaron -

>> Hi Darell, I hope I in no way offended you <<

Not even a tiny little bit! I'm sorry if you inferred that from my comments. My bad!

>> we need to be able to sell the full line of cars which is what would make it tougher on you. <<

So if I were a Nissan dealership today, I'd definitely consider having an EV expert on staff. Maybe this individual doesn't even sell cars. I mean he sells people ON the cars, but somebody else does all the "do you paint protection?" stuff. This EV expert would be able to answer all the EV ownership questions that a gas-car driver wouldn't know even after training. He would answer the public charging questions. The home-charging questions. The range questions. The "how much solar would I need?" questions. And this Expert could spend some time training the rest of the staff on the basics. This Expert would be the one point of contact that a new owner can call if there are (and there will be! I know, because I'm the one answering them now...) after-sales questions. This person can suggest informational resources that are relevant and timely for the new owner. This expert is always up-to-date on what is going on in the EV world.

So yeah... I get that I wouldn't make a good traditional car sales guy. My point is that for EVs, that's not what is needed - yet it is what's still being done.

>> As far as the rebates go, I have been hesitant to say anything is written in stone, because things tend to change and I am not a tax expert in any way. I don't want to over promise something to one of my clients and then under deliver.<<

Well, there ARE some things written in stone. But the best way to approach this is not to promise anybody anything - but to simply point to the relevant resource, and be able to summarize what it says (at any given time... it is constantly changing as the funding comes and goes, and new bills and laws come into effect). This stuff is important to buyers, and for the most part the sellers that I've spoken with are somewhat ignorant of what is going on - beyond a vague idea that there is some state and federal money available. They don't seem to know how much is available or when it is expected to run out.

Aaron, I truly appreciate your involvement in EV sales and in this thread.

- Darell, the EVnut.

Thanks JJ - yes it is very much like when first job shopping out of college. The difference is that back then I could stretch a dollar a lot farther! I have been a "consultant" of one form or another for the past 10 years. And I'd be happy to work in that capacity for Nissan (or even GM - owned by the same family here in my town) - but that aspect doesn't make it any more likely for them to "hire" me. The fact of the matter is that they don't see any value in having one more mouth to feed. They have cars to sell, and they have sales people. End of story.

@Darell, You certainly have a clear grasp on there reasoning. It is difficult in todays culture to bring someone on just to help. Although I know I value your opinions and knowledge, the dealership would have to look at it from a buisness point of view when it would come to hiring and things along that line. I did notice that one thing that was never pointed out and I would just like to throw it out there. The charging stations we have at our dealership as well as all tools were all paid for by our dealership. Nissan has not been very forthcoming and upfront with any information they have given the general public. We believe the right thing to do is let anyone who wants to charge there LEAF here if they would like to. We had a disagreement with a guest here and feel bad that it came to this, but we are truly sorry to have offended anyone. Our lot is not locked at night and anyone can access our charging stations 24/7 and we encourage you to do just that.

Hi Alan -

There are several points you should be aware of before you get too concerned about all this free electricity being tossed around.

First off, most EV drivers will be charging at home where it is most convenient. As the cars get more popular, and businesses begin installing chargers, that may change. One of the great things of EV ownership is NOT having to drive out of your way to fill the tank. Public chargers will be used to extend the range of the cars for sure, but it will be a while before that is anything near the primary charging situation.

While there are many companies out there attempting to monetize charging (Coulomb is one of the biggest), most folks have realized that the system/process of taking money is more trouble and costly than the consumed electricity is worth! Cities will be installing chargers as a way to clean up their air - by incentivizing people to drive plug-in vehicles. Private business will install chargers (Like Costco has done for years, and places like movie theaters, hotels, restaurants are lining up to do now) to draw people to their establishments. Hotels often offer free wifi and cable TV and workout rooms and free parking for this very reason. Offering free charging fits right in there.

There is some regulatory stuff that has hung up a few of the monetizing folks - there's a gray area in reselling electricity. At least in CA. So they have to call it something else. A charge for using their plug... but not a charge for the electricity. They're working through all that now, and I'm not sure just where it stands. The folks who plan on monetizing the charging assume that EV drivers will be willing to pay as much for electricity as they used to pay for gas - all surveys that I've seen seem to indicate the opposite though!... So good luck to them.

Quick-charging is a different story. While the electricity is still relatively cheap, the hardware and infrastructure cost of supplying that electricity are much higher. For this premium way of charging it makes more sense to ask for money - and I'm certain that will eventually be the case. At this point, the hard part is getting the chargers standardized, built, sited and installed. How to charge money for the service can come much later and is by no means the show-stopper, or even a bump in the road. It is just background noise at this point.

The point you're missing, I think, is that charging an EV is NOT like pulling your Escalade up to the gas pump and stuffing $150 worth of gas into the thing. We're talking about a couple of bucks worth of electrons. The typical charge at a public charger today consumes less than $1 of electricity. (BTW, there are well over 2,000 free public chargers in CA currently... and for the past ten years).

Darell, the EVnut.

@ Alan -

Oops. That would have saved me some typing! Still, the answer isn't much different. We don't have to worry about the regulatory stuff if we don't monetize the charging. If a company wishes to monetize it, they'll have to figure out the regulatory stuff... and that's exactly what is happening. It isn't up to the car makers. It isn't up to the car buyers. It is up to the companies who wish to resell "value added" electricity.

You can view this in much the same was as gasoline sales. The customers don't have much of a say. The car companies don't have much of a say. The companies that supply the gasoline have to figure it out.

It would also be great if folks would report when Nissan Dealers (or anyone else with EV charging stations) put restrictions on who they do or don't allow to charge onto the popular charging station websites such as:
www.recargo.com
www.carstations.com