Disappointing. I fear they aren't going to experience anything close to the initial interest and reservations that Chevy and Nissan had. I thought the limit they could really get away with was $37,499. That way they could say under $30K after the federal rebate.
Just think how many news stories this is going to generate. "Ford's electric car dud", "Ford stuck with thousands of electric cars that nobody wants", etc. Then the obligatory "Well, we tried but nobody wanted them" I really expected a bit more from them. Sad

What a let down. Wasn't Ford claiming that by reusing Focus parts, they could keep the price lower? As much as I like it, I just cannot justify buying this over the Volt, given that they are the same price. I'm sure that many others will feel the same way. As for Ford's underwhelming showing in the world of electrification, any time they mention their strategy, they always include conventional hybrids in the mix - and as the primary at that. It is hardly electrifying transportation if your vehicle doesn't even have a plug!

I am not sure why all of you are talking about. This is great news. I was afraid that I would feel bad about getting my Leaf next month if Ford offered a 6.6Kw charger car at a similar price. Thank you very much Ford. You got it exactly right.

For a brief moment I thought that one of the "big oil" car manufacturers was going to make a real attempt at producing an electrical car but as soon as they announced that the US version will forgo the extra 2 seats in the back and by the way we filled your trunk space with batteries it was clear that this was just another smoke screen.

But I am sure that they will be working on a next generation hydrogen car that should be ready for production in the next 25 years or so.

In the mean time we have this F150 you should have a look at.

"Let's hope Charles is right on his points about the Focus being a much better ride."

From MNL comments ...

"The Focus EV weighs 3691 lbs.

Want to know how it will handle

Put 337 lbs. in the trunk of your LEAF, and take a road test."

and

"As for handling, when some of the EVA/DC members test drove the Focus Electric they were demonstrating at the Capitol, they said it had awful handling."

I find it hard to believe that a heavier car that has worse weight distribution will handle better than a purpose built EV.

@Benjamin Nead · "Here's how Ford could have brought this vehicle to the masses at a more reasonable price, by modifying the above list (same order) . . . "

There is a car like that - it is called Coda. But you know they don't come any cheaper.

The truth is - all these items are low cost high margin items. By removing them Ford can't save much in cost. Focus EV costs more than Leaf because ...
- They have to buy the battery. Nissan is heavily vertically integrated
- They have to design a liquid cooling system for that expensive battery
- They have to ship the car to another plant to have the outsourced drive-train installed
- They don't have any savings due to economy of size, unlike Leaf

No wonder Ghosn just laughs at so called competitors in all interviews.

@Anonymous (not verified) "The Focus EV is completely assembled at the same plant as the regular Focus, in the US (Michigan)."

That was from FFE forum - and from someone not anonymous ;-)

This whole FFE thing is shrouded in so much mystery - who knows what is happening. I also read Magna is no longer the drive-train supplier. Is that true ?

@Anonymous (not verified) · "EVNow, I don't know who on the FFE forum that is saying this but everything I have read (and I just did another google search on the subject), including released media spec sheets from Ford, says the final assembly is at the Ford Wayne Assembly plant."

http://fordfocuselectric.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=777&p=1429&hilit...

@Anonymous (not verified) : "This post does not quote a source where as there are lots of sources stating that Wayne Assembly is the final assembly plant for the FFE."

Still doesn't preclude the glider to be sent to an different place - where the drive train is installed - then comes back to Wayne to finish rest of the assembly.

Laurent,
Don't you know? We are lazy, cheap Americans. We want it all. An electric car that goes 300 miles, charges in 2 hours, cost the same as a gas vehicle and has more options.

@Laurent J. Masson · "I'm surprised with all those negative comments. The Focus is about 10% more expensive than the Leaf, but those 10% bring a faster charger and some more equipment. So it's not that bad."

Focus has no real extra equipment - but has quite a few negatives compared to Leaf
- It is a conversion
- It is 300 lb heavier
- It has almost no trunc space - as batteries take up all the trunc (see 1 above)
- It doesn't have a quick charger, so I can never go to Vancouver or Portland from Seattle
- Since I have to go to a dealer to get it (no web order), I've to pay way more than $4k extra. I got Leaf for less than incoice price.

All this, without even driving the car.

Ford was explaining earlier that they can price FFE cheap since it shares the platform with Focus. Apparently not. So we get all the negatives that come with a conversion - but not the promised low price.

Not that the price is a surprise to me.

The way it is going - I can see Ghosn's vision have Nissan having a dominant market presense in the EV space - just as Prius does in the hybrid space now. The TN manufactured Leaf will be cheaper (and possibly better in many respects). Who can really compete with them ?

Ford was the only EV that was going to be available nationwide (leaving Mitsu i aside, a sub-compact not popular with Americans) to challenge Leaf. Toyota, Honda etc have chosen to build EVs just for CARB and sell only in California.

That looks great! I love that car too...

@Anonymous,
"We should be here supporting all EVs. We are complaining because domestics car companies are NOT helping the EV movement by making EVs affordable to the public."

This seems like a pretty contradictory statement. And a $40K+ Rav 4 or Chinese built Coda is affordable? Even Nissan jacked up the price of the Leaf, but, here we go again, "it's all the domestic car companies' fault". They are to blame for everything.

Like you said, it is time to support all EVs, even $100K domestic Teslas.

@Michael · "Liquid is better by default. You get better battery performance, and you get higher levels of regenerative braking."

What is more important is the battery chemistry - to give an extreme example,lead acid won't give you better perf even if liquid cooled. Li Titanate will give much better perf and definitely doesn't need liquid cooling.

I think a lot of people assume all Lithium batteries are alike and just compare the cooling method. There is a reason why LG batteries need to be liquid cooled & Nissan's need just passive cooling. Believe me, if LG batteries were like Nissan's and didn't need liquid cooling GM & Ford wouldn't be spending all the money & design time to make a liquid cooling system.

@ex-EV1 driver · "Battery chemistry isn't the only factor affecting battery temperature issues."

But it is one of the most important - which gets neglected by people who just compare cooling methods.

For eg. Roadster with all its liquid cooling is known to stop working in hot Arizona weather - but not Leaf. BTW, Leaf (with no liquid cooling) has DC quick charge but not FFE or Volt.

As to copper heating - I've copper handle much larger current without needing any liquid cooling.

@Michael · "you gave the Leaf a pass at $35K without comparing vehicle content to the Focus"

Yes, let us do that. What does FFE have that Leaf SV doesn't - and the other way round.

@Michael . "How do comments like this build interest in electric cars?"

LOL.

What build interest in EVs is not what a few of us talk in some remote corner of the Internet. What matters is the work & effort that the manufacturer puts behind their product.

My disappointment is that there isn't anyone to go with a head-on competition with Nissan. That is what we really need to bring down price, increase awareness and drive adoption. Everyone seems to be playing for the low volumne, high price niche.

@Michael
"How do comments like this build interest in electric cars?"
What these comments do is to try to draw the line between the capabilities of electric cars and the stupid antics carried out by the idiot car companies that do or will reflect badly on electric cars.

@EVNow
"Roadster with all its liquid cooling is known to stop working in hot Arizona weather - but not Leaf."
I haven't heard of any instances where the batteries prevented a Tesla Roadster from working in hot weather. I've heard and experienced problems with the PEM (Power Electronics Module) in the Tesla Roadster 1.5 that caused them to stop working at high altitudes (<4000 ft) at high temperatures (118 degrees F/ 48 degrees C). This issue can quickly be gotten around BTW by opening the boot (trunk) and wiping the top of the PEM with a damp cloth. The liquid cooled batteries were not the problem at all, it was the copper and silicon. They fixed this issue in Roadster 2.0 and higher by putting more air cooling into the PEM. The Model S will use liquid cooling for the PEM, Motor, and battery.
"I've [had?] copper handle much larger current without needing any liquid cooling"
Yes, but in order to keep your copper wiring cooler, you need thicker wire so that it has less resistance. It's all a big set of design tradeoffs, batteries are but one facet.

@EVNow,
"I repeat - let us see what exact extra equipment FFE has over Leaf SV & the otherway round. Don't just write stuff without some data to backup."

Go back to page 1 of this thread. It has already been itemized in detail.

@Michael · "Go back to page 1 of this thread. It has already been itemized in detail."

Wrong. It is just a laundry list of features in FFE. You claimed FFE should be compared to SL, not SV. I'm challenging that assertion. Show us why FFE is closer to SL than SV (hint : it is not).

Shamus (not verified),
I would be willing to bet that even at 40k, Ford is still loosing money. Anyone (big companies, small companies, new or established) that attempts to build a production electrified vehicle should be commended. I don't think the average person realizes the costs that go into these vehicles. The battery packs alone can be 15-20k (for 25kW-h). Throw in 10k for the base vehicle structure (body and chassis), 5k for the power electronics and electric drivetrain, half billion development costs, electric AC, brake-by-wire, electric steer, complicated cooling system, plant retooling, etc. and a vehicle like this can easily be over 40k (please nobody correct any of my estimates on these costs which are meant only to make the point that BEVs are expensive to develop and build). I would not be surprised if the Prius is the only electrified vehicle today that is making money for any company and that is only because of the volume. You can not criticize anyone for building a BEV just because you think their sell price is too high. At the end of the day, these companies have to make a decision, not how much they are going to make on these vehicles but how much they are willing to loose. Start up companies like Tesla have a tougher job in that they can't afford to continue to loose money and can't subsidize a loss with profits from another product.

@Anonymous (not verified) · "On the record, I'm totally against loans/grants to Tesla and Fisker Karma. They build toys for the rich, and price their toys accordingly. "

But for Tesla, there may not have been a Chevy Volt.

@regman · "For the record, I am on the fence about these loans. I don't think that the government should use our money for this ..."

In general - if Govt can keep out of energy area (except to regulate use of public resources so that pvt ineterests don't poison our air or water) - and create a level playing field, I'm all for it.

But for that to happen
- We shouldn't spend $1 Trillion a decade to "secure" oil in various wars
- We shouldn't give Oil industry tax incentives in multiple Billion a year
- We shouln't give Ethanol $6B in subsidies a year
- etc etc

So, political reality is that it is easy to incentivice EVs - in very small amounts as it happens now - than remove subsidies from oil.

BTW, I think we should remove subsidies like
- Mortgage interest paid by rich people (and nothing for poor renters)
- Credits for having more children
- Lower tax for capital gains
- Wealth transfer from one generation to the next (after that wealth already gave the wealthy kids an unfair advantage in life)
- A million other tax loopholes the corporate lobbyists put in the tax code without anyone noticing

@Sam (not verified) · "Get me 60 miles from point A to point B at highway speed while staying dry."

That is what Mitsu i does. They haven't been selling all that well.

At this initial period of EV introduction, there won't be a model for every niche. May be in 5 years time their will be multiple models with some differentiation.

Hey folks, we aren't entitled to cheap cars.
Somebody has to pay for their development.
I consider the biggest luxury we have today to be cheap transportation that enables us to go where we want and buy things from where it is cheapest or best.
Instead of just complaining that somebody should give you the cheap car you're entitled to why not take active measures to make it happen?

@Benjamin Nead,
"And, ex-EV1, how is one to take "active measures" to make affordable and practical EVs more prevalent?
My suggestion is to not waste money supporting the EV efforts of companies that demonstrate they clearly are against EVs and who's actions appear to be greenwashing (GM and BMW) or foot dragging (Ford) until they can find a way to truly kill EVs again. Also, don't throw your money down rat-holes that have little or no chance of success (Zap, Aptera, Fisker, Think, Coda, etc) because of naivety or mis-management, even if they do tell you want you want to hear.
Instead, try to figure out who is dedicated to doing the right thing and is willing to do what it takes to get viable EVs on the market.
You can tune in to discussions like we find around here in order to help you decide where, whether, or when to throw you money into the game.
If you aren't overly flush with cash and can't afford EVs when they become available, then I recommend you do what I did when my EV1 was taken from me. I drove a cheap POS with minimal payments, giving me 5 years to save up money. After 5 years without car payments, one actually has a fairly sizable downpayment lying around and can afford a car from someone, like Tesla or Nissan, who seem to actually be dedicated to making real EVs.
In the mean time, while you are saving your money you can:
- Write or call your favorite (or otherwise) automobile OEM and tell them you are waiting for whatever car style you need or want with a plug.
- Keep abreast of progress (and counter-progress) on EV development - Help to educate your friends about how they can help things.
- Make EV-friendly decisions and modifications to your home (run 240 volt/40 amp wiring to your garage or driveway) if you are making modifications anyway
- Encourage local malls, airports, and other places that make sense, to install EV charging infrastructure.
- If you are politically minded, you can encourage Public Utility Commissions to modify their laws to be less of an enemy to EVs (ie allow charging for electricity), or reduce zoning and planning board barriers.
- Take your stupid political bumper stickers off of your Prius to de-politicize EVs. It doesn't pay to alienate half of the country just to make yourself more popular in whatever single-minded haven you happen to hang out in.
- Realize that the first EVs (or any other car) are going to cost a lot of money and somebody is going to have to pay that premium, either the customers, investors, or the government (who, of course, take it from people who may not want to give). Quit whining about the cost and focus on something more constructive such as: "Clearly Ford is not willing to do what it takes to make it in the EV market since they didn't invest as much in the FFE development as Nissan or GM and they aren't interested in pricing it to capture any significant market." Whining about cost simply tells the car companies that EV supporters are just whiners who want everything for themselves but aren't team players.
- . . . and I'm sure others at this website can come up with other positive "active measures" that can help.

@dgpcolorado,
Showing an EV is a very powerful thing that you can do if you can afford the vehicle. It changes an EV from a concept to a reality in their minds!
Folks can still educate others, even if they can't afford a car by knowing all of the facts and why the costs are unaffordable initially.
Regarding what one can do when one has an EV: I've found that the best thing is if you feel you can actually let people drive an EV. I've ensured that my insurance covers others who are 'driving my car for my business' so chauffeuring me somewhere actually is covered.
If this isn't an option, giving a ride is quite effective and just being somewhere that you drove in an EV when they burned gasoline to get there is still a positive testimonial that leaves a strong impression.
Thanks for EVangelizing in Colorado!

@JOHNNY MARS "The USA is bankrupt "

Another of those tea party nonsense. We need to teach everyone eco 101.

Anon: There are a lot of small upstart companies trying to enter the EV market. Wheego is teetering on bankruptcy and In my opinion is DOA here in the states(and that's if they ever really get here). Even their CEO has stated they are living "Hand to Mouth". They don't have the cash to compete and personally I don't think they'll find many customers here in the states that will plunk down hard cash for a car from a company with no track record that is barely solvent. Not when they can get a LEAF, an iMiEV, or a Smart ED. The base price for a Wheego with only air conditioning as an option(yes, it's an option) is $35,995. So it's about the same as a LEAF and more than the other cars. It's much smaller than the LEAF and the iMiEV and unlike the other companies, the manufacturer has no proven track record and may very well just disappear a day after you buy it. Why would anyone want to buy this?

Of course if you want to discuss it at greater length, register on the site and start a discussion. Anyone can start a discussion here, just register and submit!

Jeff,

Not really. The battery & thermal management system for it alone in the Focus probably costs Ford about $18,000. They are simpler, but battery costs are sill high. This will reduce in time, and hopefully there will be breakthroughs in energy density and cost soon, but for now electrics will cost more than their comparable ICE counterparts, there is no way around it.

Hi ex-EV1,
>> On the positive side: Their CEO, Mike McQuary seems to be 100% committed to electrification and he seems like a competent businessman. <<

I know Mike and several others at Wheego. All really nice folks, genuinely committed to what they are doing. I think they underestimated the difficulty in going from software to cars, (as did Tesla, but they had the advantage of huge funding from the git go). The sourcing of a Chinese clone was a horrible mistake, in my view. People here do not love to buy Chinese stuff, and early adopters, especially, do not like intellectual propety theft (of which the Wheego body supplier was being accused by Mercedes). The Smart car was already failing in US sales when they were developing the Wheego, and it was well known that Smart would come out with their own car, with the backing of (what was once inarguably) the manufacturer with the best-engineered cars. For a micro company to compete with the big car manufacturers, they have to offer something not available, rather than something inferior at a higher price.

Tesla has done this pretty well. The Roadster is undeniably snazzy, and the S offers a lot beyond the LEAF, Focus, Mitsu, etc.

Fisker has flopped at this. The only virtue of the Fisker is it styling, which is not enough to make people buy it. The Volt is twice the car (amazingly, is actually almost twice as efficient on either electricity or gas) at less than half the money. Passing off a 20 mpg car as green is the most cynical form of greenwashing, in my view. Passing off acceleration slower than a V6 Camry as "high performance" is silly.

Coda? What are they offering that you can't get now or soon from any big car company? Phoenix? Already have the answer there.

Regarding pricing, it seems odd that I can buy tiny volumes of LiFePo cells for less than the big manufacturers claim it costs them to buy them by the thousands. If there are converters offering electic cars at $25,000, why can't Detroit offer them at the same price or less?

I love electric cars, but even if I were not spending my electric car stash on the Zing!, there is nothing from the big car makers that is attractive enough to buy. The other manufacturers should have the balls to do what Toyota did with the Prius, and lose money on the first 200,000 units. Reva is the only company that offers what I want: inexpensive, simple, and minimized resource consumption in both operation and construction.

The Fisker is a dramatic example of the vicious spiral that occurs from adding features and luxury: a car that weights more than an SUV, and gets worse electrical efficiency than any production or converted pickup-truck-based EV. The Honda CEO is right: electric cars make especially good sense in very small cars, because in an EV price goes up logarithmically with weight: add enough batteries to have good range, and suddently you have a much heavier car, so you need more batteries yet.

Bring me a 2500 lb LEAF, and I'll buy it.

The Volt is the other possibility, because then I don't need a fleet of vehicles: one car can serve both local and long distance needs. And then, for me, and for others who actually care about resource consumption, there is the Zing!

For my own selfish (market research) purposes, I like the Focus price. Being the same as the Volt price, it gives a basis for comparison of acceptance of the two strategies: extended range vs tow truck ;) . If the Volt outsells the Focus, then we know the degree to which PHEVs resonate with the public. The Volt/LEAF experience suggests that preferences are about equally divided, but the pricing difference should put the LEAF well ahead in sales numbers. (But, of course, there are all the supply issues, provided you believe that two companies that can easily build 300,000 units of a new model cannot build 20,000 units of a particular new model.) The fact that so many manufacturers are planning for very low production numbers (1000 - 2000 in a limited market range) does not mean that they cannot build enough cars, it means that they don't think they can sell enough. (You remember when Chevy was talking about having 60,000 per year capability by this year?) Think De Beers.

The 6.6 vs 3.3 charging is of little value outside of California. Where I live, there is near zero likelihood of finding a level 2 charge outlet other than in my home. In my home, 1) either will work for an overnight charge, 2) the installation for the lower rate is a litte cheaper, and 3) the electric consumption rates may be a little lower where they are based upon draw.

The LEAF's quick charge capability is a huge differentiator, however, and last I knew, the Ford does not have this. This may mean almost nothing right now, but in the idealized case, this could make the Nissan capable of long trips -- at least it's fun to imagine a quick charge unit at every Starbucks.

There's clearly a market for both EV and PHEV. In many cases, the same household wants or has both. It's not an either / or, they should strive to make both, and in far greater numbers. Nissan at least appears to be headed in that direction.